@Guy said:

As I understand it VSL does not focus on one single aspect, if you limit yourself to that only then I'm guessing you are not taking advantage of the full lib available. I'd rather have a balanced lib which I can use for almost any kind of situation than everything including memory focused on something very particular.

One doesn't necessarily negate the other. You can have all the "section" strings patches (violins I, violins II, violas, cellos, basses) and "full string" patches as well. Everybody wins!

I find it interesting that Herb says that what VSL do for sections can't be done on a "full strings" patch. What about snap pizz, col legno, harmonics (in the Strings I & II collections)? It would *useful* to be able to use these "articulations" (or whatever the way you want to call them) on the whole string orchestra range, without having to pull up 5 strings tracks to play a full col legno chord.

Many libraries have been providing these articulations in Full Strings patches for years. I just don't see why VSL couldn't do the same; it's a shame especially considering the quality of their products...

As such, I think (and I am not the only one...) that it would have been great to have more Appasionatas articulations available for Full Strings, even if the basses are not included (or they could just play a standard articulation): détaché, normal/strong/progressive vibrato, crescendo/diminuendo.... It would save a lot of pain, time and frustration.

Regarding the monophonic patches, I don't see why they couldn't be applied to a Full String sections... What's the difference? Let's say you want legato. From C2-to F#2, you're using the violas patches. From G2-F#3, violas and violins. And then from G3 and up, just the violin patches. Finally, when you're "crossing" over two sections (say, you're playing a F2 to A2 interval), the legato is only applied for the violas; the strings would just play the regular A2 note (as if you were "starting" to play on A2).

That doesn't seem impossible to me... You "just" need to program it to change "section" at the right note. The big job would be on mixing/balancing these correctly, so that the "jump" between two sections wouldn't be obvious. It might not be "easy", but the VSL guys have been impressing us for a long time now and I don't think this is out of their reach!

You guys have made wonders with your "interval" patches, by developing something nobody thought could be made easy, and you just can't find a way to make a good all-around Full String legato patch? That's really puzzling to me...

Jerome

Performing legato but changing instruments seems very artificial to me.

@herb said:

Performing legato but changing instruments seems very artificial to me.

Well, that sums it up [:)]

J.

I should let this inane thread die its well-deserved death and roll back into the dim mists of the forum-database past, however ---

"That sums it up" Sums what up? I don't understand that. Nothing has been summed up whatsoever.

"You guys have made wonders with your "interval" patches, by developing something nobody thought could be made easy, and you just can't find a way to make a good all-around Full String legato patch? That's really puzzling to me... "

You must find a lot of things puzzling. This may be the most absurd sampling idea I've ever heard. What are you talking about, legato from bass to viola? Or maybe cello to violin?

The all-strings patches are a simple expedient mainly for doing realistic pads with a few other articulations thrown in. If you want more detailed sound, like legatos or all the articulations, you obviously use individual instruments, not generic all-string ensembles.

Also, it is obvious that the Appassionata strings are not designed to replace all the other strings with a separate self-contained library duplicating all the other articulations. They are meant to add more expression to what already exists.

So the whole point of this thread is based upon a misconception. Which is fine - I don't blame someone for that. But what I don't like is how the misconception is combined with a smartass tone, and a demanding, almost infantile attitude. People are given so much today, but they always want MORE, MORE, MORE. It is, frankly, disgusting, One hundred years ago people had NOTHING compared to this. And they were striving to use it. Instead of sitting surrounded by riches and yelling for more.

@William said:

Also, it is obvious that the Appassionata strings are not designed to replace all the other strings with a separate self-contained library duplicating all the other articulations. They are meant to add more expression to what already exists.

I do agree with this. The one issue that came up regarding AS was a question by svonk... those who have Orch Strings 1 on one drive and Orch Strings 2 on another are encountering the same issues as they did with Chamber and Solo Strings--- except the App. Str. set is much more integral to Orch 1 and 2 and is still on one license. It throws a slight wrench in the works depending on how you've already organized your HDDs.

I am going to have to rethink where my files are located and how to reorganize all the strings so that it makes sense in terms of drive load.

Wiliam, if I'm pissing you off so bad, please ignore my posts, as I will do for yours from now on. They're so aggressive, it's unbelievable. I did nothing to deserve that kind of smack talk, so you'll excuse me if I don't read your posts anymore.

Hey Guys:

At the end of the day, it's not the end of the world. As the VSL Cube continues to expand into a VSL Hexahedron of sorts, there will no doubt be more developments and improvements with more articulations to come.

As I watch the news, I am reminded that the enemy is elsewhere and not here-- if musicians part ways over a simple difference of entitled opinion, then all hope is lost.

William and Jerome:

I have immense respect for both of you... and no, my post here is not a call to hold hands and to sing "Kum bah ya"! [:P]

When people agree, it serves as confirmation that one's instincts are serving them well. When people express a difference of opinion, I learn the most from reading what these divergent points of view are. This whole world of VIs necessitates an extremely open mind on my part. I value the differences of approaches and needs members have expressed here over the years. It helps confirm what can be done now and provides insights into what might be done in the future.

With App. Strings in general, there was a day when there was no such thing-- VSL delivered generously by offering VIPs the violins for free and now the extended license for free. It will get better, but it *is* already good. At least that's my opinion.

So, my personal request is that we keep the discussions going as constructively as possible. Who knows? Something just may come out of this that doesn't keep the VSL team from taking threads like this seriously.

Peacefully and respectfully submitted,
JWL

Thanks Charles for the peaceful comment [:)]

As many here, you know I am absolutely in awe of what the VSL guys have done. I think the VI setup at our studio proves that we're taking this thing seriously... I really do not think my original post was aggressive; I was merely expressing a disapointement.

It really bothers me when "fanboys" are yelling at you for expressing a *slight* criticism. If the only thing we are here to talk about is how great VSL is, then this place would be very boring, because we *all* know VSL products are great!

But great doesn't necessarily mean perfect. Which is why I think it can be useful to give one's opinion about a product. That doesn't mean the VSL guys have to listen to that opinion - but at least they are aware of it.

When I said "that sums it up," it meant exactly what it meant. Herb's opinion explains why they don't spend time on full string patches. Being the guy behind VSL, Herb's opinion define what VSL develops.

It's not the end of the world - there are many other "full strings" libraries out there. I just find it too bad that because of this, we can't rely exclusively on VSL for our orchestra samples needs. I would love to ditch everything else and only use VI in our studio. That's why I am disapointed. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jerome

Some people here need to do more sports.... Spilling all over the place... Need to take a chill pill..

Jerome (why am I wasting one second addressing this obnoxious personage? I don't know - noithing at the time better to do, which is sad, I know):

I am not a "fanboy" as your obnoxious post defines me - what does that mean anyway? Someone who worships something indiscriminately? is that what you are crudely trying to imply? I am a musician, and so I respect muscianship, as shown by the VSL.

BTW - any inspiration for new musical/sampling concepts that you might have - trust me on this one - they already thought of. About ten years ago. Prior to the First Edition... [8-)]

I generally don't comment on rants. But I gotta jump in and say that, on this forum, I've been blown away by the usefulness of Jerome's posts and his helpful, respectful and responsive attitude. Jerome's detailed descriptions of his setup and his way of working provided me with a crucial crash course on how to get up and running quickly with VI.

Certainly nothing in any of his posts even begins to justify the level of vitriol that's just been hurled his way. Or did I miss the post where he said "The comparatively small number of articulations in the Appassionata strings just made me go out and hurt a small child?"

Jerome, don't be driven away by this, and thanks for the wealth of info you've provided here.

Peter

I virtually never post, but I have to agree with Plurye. William, you are out of control here. I admit that I don't quite understand Jerome's concern, since I don't really need extensive articulations for comping, but I find myself feeling embarassed over your defensive overreaction. I have come to appreciate Jerome's insight and help.

What really scares me about this thread is the indication from several comments that A.S. appears to be flawed: not a complete section, maybe it will be improved, useful for rounding out existing libraries, etc... I'm putting my credit card back in my pocket. The fact is that I will not purchase another expensive string section that doesn't really knock everyone out. My fear is compounded by the fact that I can't find any "naked" AS demos on the site, even as it is being shipped. What's up with that?? If anybody can refer me to some, PLEEZ let me know.

Fact is, my VSL strings have been a huge disappointment. Of the last hundred projects I have done for clients, NOT ONE of them has chosen the version with the VSL strings. I have taken them off of my hard drive. The winds and percussion are fabulous, but the strings...

RW

OK, I'm going to jump in here as well. SPLASSSSSSSSSSSH.

Who says that Appassionata Strings is flawed? None of us have even seen it yet, so how would we know? I have been using the Violins for a while now, and whilst I find that there are not enough articulations for my purposes, I still use them on most projects. The red herring of wanting string patches is exactly that; a red herring. One of the great things about VSL is the ability to try to create believable orchestrations in a virtual sense. There is nothing believable about string patches. This is not to say that some composers wouldn't find them useful for noodling, but the idea of using them on a demo fills me with dread. OK, if you are just holding down a few chords and are quite happy to have 80 violins etc. in your section, then fair enough, but to play any kind of meaningful legato line would be nonsensical.

I'm not trying to be some sort of snob here, but if the thought of all articulations in a multipurpose, Wal Mart patch appeals so much, then I would suggest that the whole principle behind VSL is not really what you are looking for. Of course, I could be wrong. It has happened before. [:D]

DG

I think Herb and VSL et al has once again shown that they follow the age old adage "treat others as you yourself would want to be treated" - they have continued to offer a generous and fair upgrade path to their dedicated users - in the form of the free extended edition on the appa strings. At the same time he has to do the right thing by the company so it can grow be prosperous and continue on this very interesting and productive path, but it's clear to me at least that he and those at VSL are thinking "Hmmm, if I were the end user, I would be happy with... this", and that is such a rare commodity in a company and individual leader within a company these days, and shows a depth of character and personality - all around a thing to be, at least as far as I am concerned, highly commended.

All I'm saying myself is that I think it is unfair that after all the hard work the first post about this library is a negative one, when it is really a fantastic library.

Miklos.

Having chimed in, I should point out that I have no opinion whatsoever about AS -- haven't heard a note. I'm sure it's amazing, and probably not perfect. And I'm sure I'll buy it sometime. Hey, I've bought whole sample libraries and ended up using one or two patches -- waddya gonna do?

I was simply making a plea for civility. If you don't agree with what somewhat says, why not just disagree as passionately as you want with the person's argument, and stop short of launching a personal attack? On this forum in particular I've found that there are so many people with useful info, we're all served if everyone is encouraged to contribute. Something tells me that a groundbreaker like Herb isn't crying himself to sleep over a criticism or two, even one shot from the hip -- hey, I'm sure even Rolls Royce gets calls saying "That new hood ornament was supposed to be 24-carat gold -- only looks like 18 to me."

PL

Jerome said:

"I find it interesting that Herb says that what VSL do for sections can't be done on a "full strings" patch. What about snap pizz, col legno, harmonics (in the Strings I & II collections)? It would *useful* to be able to use these "articulations" (or whatever the way you want to call them) on the whole string orchestra range, without having to pull up 5 strings tracks to play a full col legno chord."

I totally agree with Jerome here and see nothing wrong with this idea. Why not give us more Full String articualtions like harmonics, snap pizz, col legno...

Anyone have a good reason why NOT to have these patches? Am I missing somethig?

I don't think the monophonic articualtions need to be included but why not have all the "pad"-able articulations?

Dragon

All "pad-able" patches which are available for all four string sections of the appassionatas are included as full string patches.

best
Herb

@herb said:

All "pad-able" patches which are available for all four string sections of the appassionatas are included as full string patches.

best
Herb

Thanks for your reply Herb but don't you feel that harmonics, snap pizz, and col legno could be useful as full string patches?

I know that in the context of this thread it seems my concern is specific to the AS library but I understand that the AS library was really intended to provide a higher level of expressiveness then hereto developed and that these extra full strings articulations would not really add to the expressiveness of the library so not including them in AS makes sense.

BUT, why not add these full strings articulations to the strings I and II libraries at least?

I would love to be able to load a full string section pad of harmonics without having to load 5 instances of the VI and 5 tracks in my sequencer.

Thanks for listening,
Dragon

My issue, was not with any critism, or request for more features - only that the first post off the bat was such a downer, and I thought anyone with any sensitivity would consider that this is a newly released library, and it's a bit low to put that there in *that* context, without considering first the hard work and good energy of the people involved who made this, what is, a beautiful library. I've heard the demo's and I already knew it would be fantastic from using the hearing the violins section the last few months.

But of course, there is nothing wrong with somebody expressing their own opinions, crtisisms, and requests for features, it's more a question of timing and context.

Certainly the people at VSL aren't going to be mortally wounded over it! But the fact is how would YOU feel, I suppose that is my point - if you consider that, coming onto the forum and reading something that reads as though they have made some kind of critical mistake "once again" about something you've just worked very hard on for a long time, and that is , in fact, exceedingly good quite contrary to what the subject of the post suggests. Of course you're going to know better, but that is not the point.

I think it's time that people on forums everywhere started reason their behaviour a little more, and to treat them like the public intellectual houses they are and not treat them as the public intellectual trash houses they are not, that is, you should take your coutesy and ethics with you that you use in your home, work and public onto the internet as well, and if you are drunk or something he he.... remember that you are drunk and in public, not a bar, which means other people might not also be drunk and sharing in the same experience as you. I think if you wouldn't normally say something like that or many other things in direct presence and company of the other people who are going to read it, then you shouldn't say it. In other words think if you would say that to another persons face in a person to person situation and you may find that you tend to say it very differently.

Miklos.

@Another User said:

In other words think if you would say that to another persons face in a person to person situation

an unwritten - sometimes also written - rule since the usenet existed in the internet and applicable to forums too.
well, sometimes you enter a nice bar and find yourself in a strong discussion going on ... hey, another tequila, please ...
christian