Good point Jay. I am also certain the the 'next generation' of VI (on the chalkboards and perhaps already in actual development) will be further groundbreaking techology.


No sercret, as mentioned above, that we all use other competing libraries to satisfy our clients, but I made the decision to lean my 'main' ladder up onto the VSL building a few years back and have never once regretted the decision.

[[;)]]


Rob

nliberg wrote:

@Another User said:

I wonder how they will handle the divisi playing. The notes in a chord never arrive exactly at the same time and since the a program cannot look into the future (at least not until virtual instrument-sequencer integration improves) to see what notes are to come it has to wait a certain time. This usually implies a latency, I'd guess somewhere between 10 and 20 ms, to allow for sloppy playing. That's a possible downside to automatic divisi handling.

Well, if you listen to their demo movie, there is such a delay that it sounds like a delay plugin has been applied. I know one can't judge from a low quality movie, but it sounds pretty sloppy to me....

@William said:

I haven't heard any demos other than an inconsequential little blurb for tenor sax which sounded o.k.

However there is one complete fallacy in the DVZ (DIVISI) hype. That bad sample performances sound "like a pipe organ" because of too much doubling. That is NOT the reason, and is in fact a relatively minor factor, especially considering you can already do divisi with solo and ensembles of varying size as in VI.

The real reason for the "pipe organ" sound is lack of expression. So a "note-on, note-off, note-on" effect occurs. You can have all the divisi in the world, and that won't change a damned thing. It will always be a challenge to create real expression in a musical performance.

That certainly enters into it, but there is no doubt that playing trombone chords, for instance, with way too many bones on each note, doesn't help.

The other reason things are often described as "organlike" in sound is just plain poor orchestration, i.e. having close voicings where the shouldn't be, etc.

I don't want to knock any product before I hear it, this new library may be amazing. That said, until someone knocks it off the top of the heap, VSL is still the one to beat, divisi or no divisi. JMHO.

TH

I fall into the category of very keen amatuer (little talent). It feels like I have spent decades drooloing over owning a VSL orchestra set ... and late last year I managed to afford the complete cube.

Even if AI is better (by whatever measure), and nobody has even heard a demo yet .... then I am not going to spend another 5 years drooling over a new toolset. Life's too short, and I've all the tools I ever dreamed of to make great music.

I guess very, very, very few people will have the money, determination, need, and obsessiveness to start out all-over again on a new architectuve, new set of tools, new headaches ....


.... and anyway, all this specualtion before anyone has heard anything?

Tom,

You're right on that. It is a factor, I just meant it is not the main reason. Also that's a good point - bad orchestration is a huge factor. In fact I'd say the three main reasons for bad sample performance, assuming a decent sample library, are in order of importance (sorry, I seem to like to make lists) : 1) lack of expressive nuances, 2) bad orchestration, 3) bad mixing and 4) too much doubling. So I'd put it about fourth in importance.

If VSL had alternate solo instruments and a couple two-player desks in the strings, DVZ does not have a chance at unseating them. I think they will probably be good, but I predict the musical quality of VSL will still kick their asses.

I don't believe this total automation stuff. For example, they say everything is right there, instantly. The trills, the tremolos... etc. O.K. But you still have to select them. that's the whole problem - selecting articulations and expressions. So you select them a different way than tracks. That is not necessarily easier. It could be harder depending on if the interface is clumsy.

....however i am scared from the number of computers necessary and in
any case who guarantees the perfect operation...?

@drew buchan said:

...
Even if AI is better (by whatever measure), and nobody has even heard a demo yet .... then I am not going to spend another 5 years drooling over a new toolset. Life's too short, and I've all the tools I ever dreamed of to make great music.

I guess very, very, very few people will have the money, determination, need, and obsessiveness to start out all-over again on a new architectuve, new set of tools, new headaches ....


.... and anyway, all this specualtion before anyone has heard anything?

This sort of crossed my mind, too. Somehow, I don't think anyone would be talking about the "next thing" if there weren't the sense that something else were needed- or that something is currently missing (regardless of manufacturer).

From what I can tell, users of VSL VI love it-- and judging from the insane mp3's, there's no question that VSL VI is more than capable of truly awesome results.

I invested in VSL first, so adding something as costly as AI has little appeal for me at this point. To read a preview report that includes the blurb ".. if you need to ask about the price, you probably cant afford it. ..." implies something at or beyond VSL's MSRP. (For those who haven't seen it-- http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=3264).

Even if money were no object, we're still bound by the limitations of hardware; the same article also cites: "...You need massive computing power and storage to get the best out of these libraries..."

We can chase after all the software in the world, but we're still back to square 'one' with hardware limitations. If this is a non-issue, then AI could clearly emerge as a powerful innovation and addition to the ongoing timeline of VI developmental history.

But I'd rather have users' first-hand reports than developers' pre-release ad claims.

Did someone say "time will tell"?

I persist in the thought that sampled strings can be improved. I hope Ai succeeds.

But, beyond the string sounds they may achieve, my interest in other Ai ventures drops precipitously. "Space" seems to me to be the fifth iteration on IR's. And maybe technically it has nothing to do with IR's. But however they do it, do we really need another way to put a sample in a room? Altiverb, Gigapulse, Space Designer, MIR. I'm just saying it's hard to get excited about another one, and equally hard to imagine that it could be so amazingly better. I'll try to keep an open mind.

"Orchestrator" interests me the least. It carries three issues for me. The first is, we have an extremely high-end product here. By definition, it targets music professionals. But these are the very people who know how to orchestrate, who (I'd hope) jealously guard what note goes to whom. As a rule high end uses don't want these choices taken out of their hands. How can a software program orchestrate a woodwind chord? (EDIT: I can't tell from the site if "Orchestrator" is limited to DVZ strings, or which is what.)

Secondly, "Orchestrator" stresses the ease of dumping to a score. But we've been doing this so long, we have MIDI methods to extract and re-group and print divisi. Yeah, it's annoying, and no, ensembles don't sound like divisi, but these are not Herculean problems to overcome.

Lastly on "Orchestrator," Apple: take heed. If you'd free your other arm from the incessant back-patting, perhaps you could more quickly write us an Environment object that senses the number of notes we're playing and lets us allocate them to different VI's set to different patches. As good as Ai? I doubt it. But a giant step forward for us.

I'd encourage Ai to tone down the "all you have to do is play" angle. As someone mentioned already, we know better. There are a finite number of ways to hit a key, a mod wheel, and a pedal. They are not sufficient to distinguish between staccato, pizz, and jete. Eventually, you'll have to tell Ai *something*, and that's a keyswitch or a CC#, no matter what term they decide to use.

But any active sensing improvements to minimize controllers are welcome.

And one final irony: Ai claims to be a high-end sports car, but that demographic is probably the least likely to futz with the coordination of seven computers, networking, etc. The mid-rangers tolerate the tangle of farms and compatibility, like the gurus here. They do it because their resources are limited. But the Porsche crowd has a low tolerance for it.

I think strings will make or break the deal for me.

@Plowman said:

And one final irony: Ai claims to be a high-end sports car, but that demographic is probably the least likely to futz with the coordination of seven computers, networking, etc. The mid-rangers tolerate the tangle of farms and compatibility, like the gurus here. They do it because their resources are limited. But the Porsche crowd has a low tolerance for it.

I think strings will make or break the deal for me.

Great point, Plowman. "If money were no object..." where dwells the common sense, indeed!?

It's got to be more than simply expensive-- and I dare say it needs to go further in its presumed price echelon than to simply sound good.

I, too, have grown a little weary of hearing how easy something is to use rather than hearing about how easy or difficult it is put to good use. Regardless of cost, it's the call of the consumer to determine the value.

Those posts by plowman and JWL are exactly how I feel. Also, we live in an age of technology glut. And if you are going to learn a powerful tool like VI, then drop it like a hot potato because somebody else has got a new one - I guess you will be spending all your time learning tools, instead of doing music.

I suppose I simply don't believe the basic hype they state on their site - that it's instant orchestration. As was pointed out in those posts, nobody who is a pro uses someboy else's "instant orchestration."

Actually, what I think about these guys basically, is that they are entering a market that is crowded, and so they are desperate to establish themselves as a "niche." And the niche is --- divisi. That may convince some consumers. But who are they marketing to? With those scary statements "if you ask about money you don't have enough?" Yikes!
I ALWAYS ASK ABOUT MONEY!

The basic sound quality is the ONLY thing that matters. You can have all the divisi you want, but...

it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. And as we all know, Herb and the cats at VSL got it. [H]

There is a new kid on the block that is shipping, you can hear demos and it enhances VSL, not attempting to replace.

It's called Broadway Big Band. Check it out. It's really well done & the demos sound pretty cool.

for the record (no pun intended...)

http://www.fablesounds.com/BBB-Menu-frame.htm

It really sounds pretty nice. I love the less "classical" sound of the brass-- wonderfully raucous and fitting for the style. Man, some Sinatra-type orchestrations? Are you kidding? Put some VSL strings on a nice ballad with this and you've got yourself quite track with enough care.

Thanks for the tip, Jack!

Man, the quality of sampling just keeps getting better. I don't know jazz, but that seemed like some sophisticated writing to me. Thanks to both Jack and JWL for the notice.

@Jack Weaver said:

There is a new kid on the block that is shipping, you can hear demos and it enhances VSL, not attempting to replace.

It's called Broadway Big Band. Check it out. It's really well done & the demos sound pretty cool.

Yes Jack. I think you've nailled a pretty important change in the market, that has happened in just the last 48 hours.

"Broadway" is a VI that *leverages* your existing orchestral library investments (whomesover it is produced by).

AI makes your existing orchestral library investment redundant, by definition ... and possibly much of your infrastructure ... and lightens your wallet by tens of thousands of dollars.

Personally, I can't conceive of investing the sort of money AI seems to demand, but I can and am tempted by Broadway.

I still find all this speculation over a product that doesn't yet exist quite amusing. [8-)]

However, if any sample company produces a product that sounds great and takes hardly any more time to program than typing a score in Sibelius, there will be a fair number of people interested, no matter what the cost. When you have a full time assistant, things like multiple PC/Mac set-ups are not a problem.

DG

I've heard that Broadway Big Band has been in the works for quite a long time. It seems that it was conceived about the time when the VSL Performance Tools was all the rage. They have taken that technology to a new level with some degree of automation of articulation selection. Those of us with VSL won't be too, too put off that it's Halion with the Steinberg key. Although us Mac guys might have to turn out heads & cough twice.

I really like the fact that there are two solo trumpets with different sound palletes. I so wish that was the case with the VSL solo violins. I've often wished for a more feminine second solo violin. Maybe a renowned soloist with a unique sound.

Well I guess there you go VSL, the things that might be good in the next major release are 'desks' for string sections, a second solo instrument for the more commonly used instruments and some sort of articulation automation that can be groomed after a first pass. And sure, bundle MIR into it.

Of course, now since everyone is no longer in 'sticker shock' over the concept of a network of computers you could really leverage the new computer processors in a way that would make all of this possible. Maybe we have Ai to thank for that.

Remember last year when VSL said that MIR would take another separate computer and people where spitting up fur balls? I dare say the apprehension regarding this has diminished big time now.

The Broadway Big Band sounds extremely nice. I hope that VSL plans to do a package of extended techniques and stylistic gestures for solo brass and solo woodwinds. I think something like this could prove to be very popular.

Best,
Jay

Not to take any sides here and it's my personal opinion, but after listening to a couple of demos, I'm not impressed, it hardly sounds like real brass... Hello expression? This is probably good for quick mock ups, one day job, but not good refined big band arrangements.

"I still find all this speculation over a product that doesn't yet exist quite amusing." It does exist. We have heard some of it. We know what hardware it uses and a core understanding of Ai's user methodology. We don't know the price.

Beyond that, as I read this discussion, I see what the VSL users are looking for, how they budget, how they see through marketing copy and ask pertinent questions. It's all good, DG.

So if for no other reason that cheering Plowman in his lonely outpost, I'll continue.

"When you have a full time assistant, things like multiple PC/Mac set-ups are not a problem." Admittedly true. The Porsche crowd doesn't want to futz with tune-ups and maintenance either, so they hire mechanics.

So it's ironic when, in the Ai copy, you see a kind of cost consciousness at work: the less expensive PC platform, no need for multiple audio cards, no need to re-license the sounds over multiple computers (just Kontakt). They say that the "other" library would need seven computers to run in its totality, and theirs just needs five.

But Drew has touched on the real cost: Ai is asking the user to dramatically de-value the investments already made for the *substitution* of a new library. Can you imagine how few Ai clients don't own VSL already? Those with Mac farms are really taking it on the chin. And we disavow ourselves not only of much of the hardware, but of a working method that has become second nature.

In that context, the real question emerges for commoners like me: what's the in-point? How much cost and labor do I incur grafting a twig of Ai, most likely violins and celli, into my present system? Because the idea of jettisoning all I know and love about VSL is madness to me. And if Ai offers no incremental approach, that in effect is what they're asking me to do.

The answer lies in Ai's market strategy. Is this a commercial venture or a boutique? And I don't mean "boutique" disparagingly. It's their money, their investment, and they are targeting the need for elite sound and service.

I've never heard it, apart from that dreadful video that sounded worse than a cheap SoundBlaster. Others may have heard it, but the only opinion I trust on string sampels is mine, as I probably know more about string playing than many people on this and other forums. [[:|]]

DG