Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  • Mac Mini's as VSL farms

    Considering mac mini's as vsl farms.

    I think there are a few forum members who are already doing this.

    My questions are -

    Is the dual core model worth the extra money over the single core?

    Do you REALLY? need an external drive or are you getting enough polyphony from the internal.

    what audio interfaces are you using and/or is wormhole a workable option.

    what's you opinion on using a KVM box or using apples remote control (or the microsoft version if booting into XP)??

    and last question is "how's it going"?? are you happy with their performance.??

    Clearly XP is the only workable option for the time being due to the click/pop/osx slave issue but I'm sure that will be resolved soon.

    Thanks in advance for any help.
    I've read all the posts about the mini's but I'm not sure there is a clear consensus on the mini as yet. I'm hoping you mini users are all too happy with them that your just not posting much about them.
    I walk past the Apple store in NYC nearly everyday and the mini's are so freekin tempting.

    thanks!

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    Hi,

    We are running 8 Mac Mini's here ("somewhere in Los Angeles" [:)]) with the full library (Orchestral Cube) splitted between all of them. My answers below are thus based on real-life tests and experiences.

    Yes, the Core Duo IS totally worth the extra money - it reaches the performances of a Dual 2.5Ghz G5!

    I highly suggest an external drive or - better - replacing the internal drive yourself with a faster, 7200 rpm, 100GB drive. FireWire drives are still IDE - no comparison with an internal SATA drive. And the better drive, the more polyphony you will get.

    Also, and obviously, you *need* 2GB of ram (especially if your goal is to use as much power as you can from these little babies).

    The great thing about the Mac Mini's is their Optical S/PDIF I/O. However, to my knowledge, there are no audio interface that offers 8 optical (or coaxial, if you used a converter) S/PDIF I/O. So, we went with a set of products from Friend-Chip: One DMX16 (frame + motherboard), on which you add two ADAT modules (MQA) and two Optical S/PDIF modules (MOP4).

    Basically, the box converts the 4 optical S/PDIF I/O to an 8-channel ADAT stream.

    Then, you can plug the lightpipes cables to any ADAT interface. We use MOTU 2408s because our sequencer is a Powermac Quad, and that is the best (if only) PCI-Express solution available at the moment for this specific use.

    Until the M-Audio ProFire Lightbridge comes out, the Friend-Chip seems to be the only solution.

    We tried Wormhole. It's a neat piece of software for small/consumer use, but too unreliable to use in a professional studio. Also, customer support is nearly non-existant (check out their message board to get an idea), and this is not something we want to have to deal with.

    Besides, Wormhole goes throught the network and we are already using it for large file transfers, so we would have had to get a separate network just for it... So, as you can see, Wormhole was definitely not worth it in our case.

    We have *both* Apple Remote Desktop and a KVM switch. Since all the samples are loaded in memory once and for all (more on that below), there is no reason to access the VI UI once everything is setup. So, there is no real justification for a second keyboard and mouse around the writing station. Thus, we use ARD when small issues happens and, for example, we need to fix a matrix, or quit Plogue Bidule and relaunch it.

    In specific cases (troubleshooting, installing updates, samples, etc.), we use the KVM switch, which is in the technical room, right above the 8 Mac Minis, with a 15" monitor and a keyboard on a sliding shelf.

    In regards to the Sequencer, we use Logic with a highly customized environment, based on John Frizzell's. The goal (and the great achievement) is to have only one track per instrument, and to switch articulations by selecting different channels (via a software or a hardware controller). Then, transformers transform (duh) the channels into controller messages, so that the VI engine can switch cells on the fly.

    Not only do you avoid any keyswitches this way, it also produces a midi file ready to be used in any notation program, since one track = one instrument with various articulations. And, maybe even better it gives you in the sequencer a track layout that *looks* like a score layout. No more "violins pizz" track, "violins staccato" track and "violins legato" track! Everything sits in the "violins" track.

    To come back to the Mac Mini's, in regards to performances, we are still in testing phase, but for now we are extremely pleased with the results. We can get a very, very high polyphony - basically higher that what anyone would need in a real-life situation. Moreover, you know that if the Mac Mini's run fine separately, then all of them, playing together, will run equally fine.

    In the end, it is better performance-wise and cheaper to have VI running on eight Mac Mini's than on four 2x2.5Ghz G5's with 4GB of Ram.

    Yes, it is still an expensive solution. But, when considering the benefits (the whole VI orchestra loaded in the background!) and ease of use, it's absolutely a must have.

    Now, everybody has different ways to work, so ours might not work for you. For example, we didn't try this whole thing in Digital Performer (or in any other sequencer). But hopefully my post will give you an idea of where you can go with this concept.

    Jerome

  • Jerome -

    I have a case of corona with your name on it.
    Next time I'm in LA it shall be delivered.
    Your post was more info than I could have hoped for.

    quick follow up -

    How is the VI working as a slave in OSX?
    Some have reported issues - or are you using XP at the moment?

    Your solution to getting audio out of the mini's is very interesting. I was thinking of using a cheap firewire/audio interface - (motu?). any thoughts?

    i won't even ask you more about the logic environment - my head is hurting just thinking about it.

    I am hoping to get away with 5 mini's but I can see that escalating quickly.


    A general question to all -
    Any word on Max and FX teleport cross platform ???????
    would save me at least 3K at this point.
    With my luck he'll release a week after I invest in an audio solution for my mini farm.

    Jerome - thanks again!

  • 8 Mac Minis. Very cool.

    Can you tell us how you have your instruments distributed?

    And the statement about the Mini's performance vs. G5 2.5 Dual-- remarkable.

    Clever setup, btw. Thanks.

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    @Another User said:

    I am hoping to get away with 5 mini's but I can see that escalating quickly.


    It really depends which collection you own, how you'd like to split them, how much samples you're planning to use, and if you'll get ADAT or S/PDIF out...

    Jerome

  • Hey Jerome,

    thank you very much for sharing all this information, it´s highly appreciated.

    M a y a

  • A quick follow-up.

    A friend of mine is installing the same kind of setup at Edward Shearmur's studio, except that he is a Digital Performer user. My friend found a way to make the whole concept work fine with DP, using transformers in Plogue Bidule.

    Basically, she made it so that Plogue is getting midi controller information from DP, transforms this info to keyswitches and then sends these to the VI.

    She's still at a very early stage of the whole setup, but that looks very promising!

    Jerome

  • I'm very grateful too. Phenomenal detail.

    "I highly suggest an external drive or - better - replacing the internal drive yourself with a faster, 7200 rpm, 100GB drive."

    1. As you may have replaced eight drives by now (and probably more), I'd like to know which brand you favor and why.

    2. I'm trying not to ask the unanswerable "how many instruments do you get out of one Mac Mini?" But... um... how many instruments DO you get out of one Mac mini? Say each instrument is a cross-faded Vienna Instruments legato patch.

    3. How do you differentiate the reverb per track? Are you limited to grouping the room effects per each Mini as it's collected back into Logic for mixing?

    By the way, "one track equals one instrument" is the only way to fly.

    Thanks, Jerome. Your responses are appreciated.

  • That Friendchip box is an interesting idea, but I don't understand how the M-Audio interface can replace it. The Profire doesn't accept optical S/PDIF as far as I know, right?

    Also, how much of that 2GB are you able to access? On a 2GB XP machine you can access just under 1.75GB of samples, which of course is really great. But they're bigger than Mac Minis - although you can stick cheap interfaces on them and get more than two outputs.

  • Interesting setup. I have a couple of questions Jerome, if you have another generous moment.

    First of all, how do you sync the digital signals from the mac mini's? I assume without some sort of clocking, you would have jitter and drifting.

    Second, since you are just outputting a stereo pair from each machine, what amount of submixing is going on? just panning or are you running verbs/eq on the mac mini level?

    Thanks for the great info!

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    @Another User said:

    By the way, "one track equals one instrument" is the only way to fly.


    I agree!!! It's makes much more "musical" sense!

    Jerome

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    @Another User said:

    Also, how much of that 2GB are you able to access? On a 2GB XP machine you can access just under 1.75GB of samples, which of course is really great. But they're bigger than Mac Minis - although you can stick cheap interfaces on them and get more than two outputs.


    For now, I was able to load up to 1.4GB. I think you can go up to 1.6, but I did not need that much memory yet.

    As a general thought, the "slave" concept can work with any computer, Windows or Mac.

    However, the idea here was 1/ to get rid of Windows (sorry, we're Mac-biased), 2/ to save space (looots of space), and 3/ to save energy (a Mac Mini consumes only 80W!) - and to do all this at the best cost/power ratio.

    Jerome

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    @Another User said:

    Second, since you are just outputting a stereo pair from each machine, what amount of submixing is going on? just panning or are you running verbs/eq on the mac mini level?


    As I mentionned in my previous posts, you get one stereo input per Mac Mini into your sequencer. This is why we had to organize the samples by instruments rather than by VI collections.

    As a side note, you could probably run verbs/eqs at the Mac Mini level, but I would argue against that. I really think the goal is to dedicate 100% of their power to the VI, to make sure you will never have any performance issue.

    Jerome

  • Quick tip: if you're ever in a situation where you want bounces with fewer files, submix.

    [6]

    The subtext of my previous post was to wonder whether you wouldn't be better off running XP on those Mac Minis.

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    @Nick Batzdorf said:

    Quick tip: if you're ever in a situation where you want bounces with fewer files, submix.

    [6]

    The subtext of my previous post was to wonder whether you wouldn't be better off running XP on those Mac Minis.


    Within the Logic environment, it's very easy to create aux tracks to bounce only 5 stereo stems (woodwinds, brass, strings, keys, perc, for example).

    You can run Windows XP on the Mac Minis, but

    1/ I am not sure that the digital I/O will work
    2/ You're running Windows XP [6]

    But if the digital I/O work and you like Windows, then you should be good to go [:)] Although I don't think you will really get better performances doing so.

    Jerome

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    @Jerome said:

    [quote=Nick Batzdorf]Quick tip: if you're ever in a situation where you want bounces with fewer files, submix.

    [6]

    The subtext of my previous post was to wonder whether you wouldn't be better off running XP on those Mac Minis.


    Within the Logic environment, it's very easy to create aux tracks to bounce only 5 stereo stems (woodwinds, brass, strings, keys, perc, for example).

    You can run Windows XP on the Mac Minis, but

    1/ I am not sure that the digital I/O will work
    2/ You're running Windows XP [6]
    ---------------------------------------
    I'll just add to that:
    Plus
    1. you have to buy the licenses. OSX comes on the macs already.
    2. You're running Windows XP [6] [6] [6] [6] [6]

  • Thanks Jerome. I'm actually somewhat familiar with Logic, and no, I don't particularly like XP. But at this stage the Vienna Instruments player is a little farther along on Windows than it is on PowerPC Macs in my experience (with the exception of memory access, but that's not a factor with a machine that only holds 2GB).

    I haven't tried it on an Intel Mac, though, which is why I'm wondering rather than shrieking. [:)] Didn't I read somewhere that the digital I/O can work if you install a generic driver?

  • Jerome:

    No doubt I missed something here, but I can't seem to find where you mention what software you are using to run the VI instruments on the Mac Mini slaves - or if are you using a standalone version of VI on each Mini. I understand the part about routing the output of each Mini into an aux in Logic. (I think one could also treat each Mini as an "External Instrument.") Forgive me if I missed this bit...

    Thanks in advance.

  • We're using Plogue Bidule as a host.

    Jerome

  • Jerome:

    Thanks - - that's what I thought. Now all I have to do is learn how to use Plogue Bidule for this purpose...

    Nick:

    Might I suggest an article in a future issue of your magazine, Virtual Instruments (to which I am a subscriber) with a step by step description of how to use Plogue Bidule as a host for virtual instrument plug-ins. This would be enormously helpful to those dunderheads like myself who are suffering from severe tech overload....