Thanks guys!! [:D]

Several questions have been asked about the "2nd Age of Krypton" here and through PM, in a later post I'll answer these questions how I can, and hopefully Miklos will fill in regarding the mix.

To make the service complete - here are the direct links...

Sonata in G for Piccolo Flute by Willem deFesch
featuring the piccolo flute
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4889

Canzon per sonare No1 by Giovanni Gabrieli
featuring Brass II instruments
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4890

Have fun
Beat Kaufmann

___________________________________________________________________
PS
Hey - I learnd to play the Piccolo Flute within 6 hours that way.
Others need lots of years for that.
Who made this possible for me? > Herb and Co.
Yet again - Thanks a lot for this nice instruments!

Thanks Guy for shedding some light on your programming - really just well done!!!


Rob

Josh-- LOL!! I don't laugh *at* you. I cry *with* you.

I'll be working for days on something with VI and think I've gotten to "the next level". Then I'll hear one of these demos in mp3, no less, and it usually causes me to shut down my computer for the rest of the day! I mean, after hearing 'Krypton' I 'bout had to change my diaper!!

The compositions are one thing. But the beauty of the space created for these mixes is at least as enjoyable. The quality of the sound would make even a bad piece sound good.

It's nice to know that such mixes ARE possible-- and that they can make a great piece sound even better.[/quote]

JWL,

thanks for your appreciation [:)]...

Beat,

Thanks so much for putting the time into your webpage...I've just briefly looked at it, but I can't wait to study this stuff. It's really great to have you, and your colleagues be so generous with your hard-earned knowledge. I can't wait to read more about how you've set up the instruments.

Josh

@JJRoach said:

Beat,
Thanks so much for putting the time into your webpage...I've just briefly looked at it, but I can't wait to study this stuff. It's really great to have you, and your colleagues be so generous with your hard-earned knowledge. I can't wait to read more about how you've set up the instruments.
Josh

Unfortunately some tutorials are not made for the new VI instruments. But nevertheless you will find some tips in using samples or making music with samples

Have fun and success!

Beat

Beat,

One more thank you for all you do!!!!


Just a quick question from your site.


http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/images/hintergrunddienst.gif

On this setting (sorry - don't speak your language [:O]ops: ) but I assume I set the 'processor scheduling' to background services. Wouldn't it be better for 'Programs'?

Also - what do you recommend for a 3 GB switch machine to have the "Virtual Memory" set to?

Mine is at 2046 mb (It actually 'recommends' that I have it at 4990 mb). I read somewhere to not have any virtual memory and other places that is should be 1.5 x the ram installed (in this computer it is 4 MB)

Thanks for your help on this Beat.


Rob

rob, your assumption is right .... background services
http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/449/backgroundservices.gif">
as a rule of thumb for standard machines with not too much RAM (512 is still pretty common) it is recommended to have the same amount of virtual as physical RAM, sometimes even more.
for audio machines (where you should really have 2 GB RAM or even more) it doesn't make sense to have virtual memory - you woudn't want any application to use it (even if it could) for performance reasons.

to let windows decide if and when to move assumed unused data to the pagefile can result in unexpected hickups
christian

@cm said:

rob, your assumption is right .... background services
....as a rule of thumb for standard machines with not too much RAM (512 is still pretty common) it is recommended to have the same amount of virtual as physical RAM, sometimes even more.
for audio machines (where you should really have 2 GB RAM or even more) it doesn't make sense to have virtual memory - you woudn't want any application to use it (even if it could) for performance reasons.

to let windows decide if and when to move assumed unused data to the pagefile can result in unexpected hickups
christian

Sorry Rob - We had a very nice, warm and wonderful summer evening today in Switzerland so I was not at home while you cried SOS. [:O]ops:
But now I see that Christian already answerd your questions ...

Thank you Christian - for doing my work [[;)]]


Beat

with pleasure ... although the screenshot is from a server2003, so the tabs might differ from XP
christian

Thanks guys.

So setting the VM to "0" shouldn't impact how much I can load up on RAM for these 3 GB machines (with the 3 GB switch)?

Many thanks.

Rob

Guy has asked me several times to answer some questions about the mix process and I've been trying to get around to it for days now. Of course I'm happy to share some comments on that it's been impossible this week to find a few minutes to reply.

The big thing first of all from a mix perspective is that VI is 24bit over the old 16 bit format. For me personally just speaking from a mixing perspective I find this to be a huge improvement and immediately makes it easier to achieve a better sound at the finished output when mixing a large number of instruments. It's just a start off on the right foot.

Second it's good to acknowledge the concept that VSL is essentially a dry recorded sample library, which means you need to think like an engineer who wants to place the sound and sculpt that sound. It's not as easy as some libraries, but it is far more flexible and ultimately you can achieve a wider variety of sounds. In this convolution reverb is essential in my opinion. Otherwise I think things tend to sound flat. You don't record musicians in a room all on the same spot you place them - this is important to create depth.

Third, as Guy said more than other libraries you need to use your ears, listen to how it sounds see what works. Beat has a good tutorial I read a while back on his site about tailoring instruments with eq according to their placement with other instruments - I didn't get into that much in these mixes, I wanted to present the VI sounds more "honestly" as that is what people want the demo for - but I did some compensative eq on sections of instruments sometimes based on the affect of the reverb sometimes but very little. The point is that his technique is interesting and a good idea - but small moves, and listen. Do research, listen to the mixes, think about the concepts behind the library and any equipment you are using and how it will affect the sound, listen to the results, and also an important thing - take rests, let your ears "breathe" so you can come back and hear it fresh. Try listening to the mix louder at times (not too loud), and quiet, your listening room is very important. Simple things like that. Finally the thing I try to do is approach the mix as a musical endeavour not a technical one, and there, you have to use your musicality with your technical knowledge as an assistant not the leader.

For my own input I think Guy's composition, performance and programming of this latest demo is just astoundingly excellent fun to listen to (and mix!) when you consider it is one persons performance - bravo! Thank you!

By the way my name on VSL is mpower88 if anyone wants to message me.

All the Best,
Miklos Power.





As to what technic I use to get this sound as this was asked to me by some, on this thread and through PM, I don't have a single technic, it changes on a daily basis looking for better ways all the time. My ways might not work for someone else, I think it's a personal thing which adapts to your own musical needs and although I do have some little secrets of mine I think it's more important for people to develop their own VSL technics tailor made for them and their set up to suite their personal style. But all I can say is don't settle for one way, use your imagination, which is what I do all the time. 9 out of 10 things I try don't sound good but the 10th works, what tells me if it works: my ears, that's basically my technic, as I've seen Dietz say (I think): "if it sounds good, it's good". I try very hard to find the perfect articulation through the right patch or with several combinations and occasionally I get lucky....like discovering plutonium at the end of long walk. Although I'm flattered to see some of these reactions but at the same time I feel I still have a long way to go, but it's reassuring to know that VSL is there to make these tools available for us which is the essential." I apologize if some were expecting detailed explanation of technics used in Second Age of Krypton, but after thinking about it I realized it's more a combination of dozens and dozens little things that added together make something interesting and I wouldn't know where to began explaining this.


Regards,

Guy

@Guy said:

[...] I've seen Dietz say (I think): "if it sounds good, it's good". [...]
Guy

[:)] Yes, that was me (actually "If it sounds right, it is right"), but as a matter of fact that's a quote from famous producer/engineer Joe Meek, as far as I remember.

... anyway - a good motto to stick to!

Dietz,

...and I thought you were a genius! [[;)]]

@Guy said:

Although I'm flattered to see some of these reactions but at the same time I feel I still have a long way to go, but it's reassuring to know that VSL is there to make these tools available for us which is the essential." I apologize if some were expecting detailed explanation of technics used in Second Age of Krypton, but after thinking about it I realized it's more a combination of dozens and dozens little things that added together make something interesting and I wouldn't know where to began explaining this.


Regards,

Guy

First, thanks again to you and Miklos for a fun listening experience.

Of course, there is no set of instructions on one page to answer all questions. I appreciate the smaller bits of information and insight because I'm compiling my own "combination of dozens and dozens little things" which are being added together in different ways for different purposes.

But it's always the last 15-20% of the process that is the most difficult for me. There are so many variables with sculpting the sound that one can suddenly find himself with an infinite series of decisions to make, only to choose one that "sort of works" and then wonder what would have happened had any of the other millions of approaches had been taken.

Often, once it's done-- it's done. "If it sounds good, it is good." It's often so difficult to remix, and it rarely happens if the previous mix indeed sounds good.

Because VSL-VI is so different even from its predecessors, I feel as though I'm having to completely rethink ways of mixing virtual instruments in general. So much can be taken for granted because it's "in the box" with the usual front-end mic-room-preamp issues already addressed.

So, please forgive me for sounding at times like a 2 year old kid with so many questions....

Just know that hearing anything from the VSL team is valuable information and greatly appreciated, even in small quantity. Everyone thinks differently, and it's impossible to know without communication whether someone else's approach may offer tremendous benefits to one's own workflow and results.

Vielen Dank noch einmal mit Vergnügen!!
JWL

Hi JWL. I am not part of the VSL team, I just mix Guy's demo's, and I'm a pro ed owner.

What can I say the truth is that the bottom line is that one has to make assertive choices, decisions in the mix process based on your ears and your best judgement, at least that is what I have found. If you make a mistake you will learn from it. That's probably the single best piece of advice I could give.

One suggestions I would make would be to not use Logic plug ins, personally I don't like the sound of them. If you have to use them - then they are best avoided, especially the adaptive limiter, the linear eq is not bad if you have to. Don't try to master things until you have done all you can in the mix, before you use eq, try to place things differently in the mix, don't be stuck with traditional orchestral layouts necessarily. If you listen to some hollywood scores, they're not conventional. You just have to do what sounds best. just to add an edit here. I must say actually the linear eq in logic is not bad at all, and quite useable. but when I say I don't like the plugs in logic, I'm probably referring more to the compression and limiting specifically - not my cup of tea, but I am referring to the overall sound as well, I find much of those plug ins tend to cheapen the sound and that is especially noticable on VSL/VI material. But that's just me and certainly they have their place.

Also just to add to that as I have a moment: Mix creatively to the piece. I think it's good to think in terms of the mix being an extension of the composition. You're not just trying to get a sound, you're trying to get a sound for that piece or scene or film or whatever. What may sound great on one style or piece won't be the most beneficial for another. Mix closed on claustrophobic music, mix open-mindedly on a more positive sounding piece. It matters a lot your conceptual ideas before you even start I think, I treat mixing like any instrument playing, like composing, or anything else, if that makes sense. Just as the composer tries to enhance an emotion or scene if we're talking about film, the mixer should enhance the composition. These are just thoughts I've had myself along the way. I hope it helps you. Start at the ground up, set up your mix, get your placements the way you want, get your levels where you want them, then think about eq and compression, if you're not sure, go natural until you feel there is an instrument or secton that needs some tweaking, don't always go for the obvious thing. In eq, sometimes you need to drop the lower end rather than push up the higher end to get a brighter sound in the mix, and you often only need very little to achieve what you want. Or perhaps offset with another section or instrument by doing the reverse, or modifying a different band of frequencies to fit/sit in with the other group. Listen and compare. If it doesn't sound better, go back and start again. If you start at the right place coneptually, just as sitting down to play a piece of music, and you consider all the points you're likely to traverse along the way, and then consider your application of your concept along with some healthy creative spontenaeity - ie be open minded as well - you can create the mixes you want. it takes time and you can't rush it. Sometimes it's just one or two volume changes right at the end of the job that for me make the final difference from no to yes, sometimes I say, that's terrible, I can't stand it and I start again from the beginning.

I hope that helps,
Miklos.

...and another wonderful demo by Guy Bacos:

Sadness of Sauron
http://www.vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=13&DemoId=4895

thanks a lot Guy and Miklos
Herb