Legato strings with "hard" attack

[DG]

I'm trying to put together a matrix (aren't we all) where I can switch from staccato to legato. I find that the start note for the legato is too smooth sounding and really need a hard attack note, much as there is in the Pro Edition for some brass instruments. I've played with the controls but have not found anything that sounds suitable. Short of layering (I'm trying to avoid this, as it won't work for solo instruments) what patch should I use?

DG

[herb]

I would look at the "harsh" performances.
I think they also work very well if you layer these patches even using solo instruments. The Perf-Harsh - Combi matrixes are based on this concept.

One part of the Stacking and Layering Patches video tutorial shows setting up this kind of matrixes.

Of course you could choose less agressive attacks like normal staccati.

best
Herb

[DG]

@herb said:

I would look at the "harsh" performances.
I think they also work very well if you layer these patches even using solo instruments. The Perf-Harsh - Combi matrixes are based on this concept.

One part of the Stacking and Layering Patches video tutorial shows setting up this kind of matrixes.

Of course you could choose less agressive attacks like normal staccati.

best
Herb

Thanks for the reply, but that's not the sound that I'm after. I'll think about it for a couple of days and then see if I can explain it better.

DG

[JWL]

DG-- have you tried editing individual cell ADSR's or using the Perform Attack fader? You may also try (in the case of layered patches) to set the X-fade to a specific level that works in general. This can always be adjusted with a controller....

[DG]

@JWL said:

DG-- have you tried editing individual cell ADSR's or using the Perform Attack fader? You may also try (in the case of layered patches) to set the X-fade to a specific level that works in general. This can always be adjusted with a controller....

Yes, and it's still not what I'm after; keep the ideas flowing though [:)]

DG

[dpcon]

DG, If you are avoiding layering because you wouldn't want the sample always playing, why not create a new layered instrument in it's own cell and leave the legato staccato patches you use regularly where they are?

[DG]

@dpcon said:

DG, If you are avoiding layering because you wouldn't want the sample always playing, why not crreate a new layered instrument in it's own cell and leave the legato staccato patches you use regularly where they are?

Sorry, I already tried that and it's not what I'm after. I'm just playing around on my violin ATM to try to figure out what exactly I need, and then maybe I can be more specific [:)]

DG

[JWL]

DG-- you've got me ultra curious now-!!

Is there a film score or symphony excerpt which has an example of the sound you're after?

Do you have a way to post a link to an mp3 so that we could hear a small part of the particular melodic line you're working on? It would be fun to try to reproduce this just as a project to learn a new technique.

[DG]

It is such a common sound in all Classical works. It usually happens to a sustain after a note played off the string.

I have narrowed it down to the following characteristics:

1) Slight accent from the bow
2) Quick attack, but not harsh or short in any way
3) Fast vibrato relaxing after the initial attack, so that essentially both hands create a slight accent.

I'm going to look through all my old AKAI libraries tomorrow, as I'm sure that I had it with one of them. It may well be that I can make a construct, but I can't find the right components at the moment.

DG

[JWL]

It's still hard to tell without hearing the intended effect, but from your description I would start with a 4-layer Vib patch and then drag a detache patch into the lower part of the cell to make a "double patch" cell. I'd then use the Cell Edit to set the volume of the new attack to fit.

I would also experiment with using a variety of Chamber String short notes for the right added attack. Then, as the X-Fade is moved, the vibrato can be controlled.

I can't recall which patch it is at the moment, but there is one patch in the Chamber Strings that has a much more penetrating vibrato than anything I've been able to find in Orch. Strings. I'd need to look at it again, but I'm not sure if this vibrato is controllable. If not, it could be put in a seperate VI and placed very low in the mix-- being brought up in the mix where needed.

Of course, these are workarounds. The underlying question here is whether we are exploring the limits of our understanding of how to use VI-- or encountering, to some extent, the limitations of VI's capabilities. This is a very intriguing question-- one I would love to persue further.

Keep us posted! You've succeeded in bringing my Saturday catch-up work time to a grinding halt wondering about this--!! [:D] Now, I won't stop until you tell us that you got what you wanted and HOW you accomplished it!

[DG]

Sorry to ruin your day [:D]

So now to make amends; I'm thinking of producing a video of me playing the opening Violin 1 part of the Holberg Suite in real time. All I can tell you is that so far I use two hands two feet and am awaiting the breath controller to arrive. Then the transformation to VI clone will be complete. Mwahahahahahahah [6]

DG

[JBacal]

DG, is the effect you are searching for similar to the solo violin performance detache articulation-- in other words, legato but with a distinct (but not harsh) change of bow direction?

Best,
Jay

[JWL]

Hey DG-- I know the Holberg Suite well-- conducted it on tons of concerts last season while "guesting" with various orchestras.

After the initial "galloping" motif, the first violins play the melody beginning with--

B-B-B-E (f#-g)
A-A-A-D
etc..

Are those the notes in question?

There are as many different ways this can be played as there are string sections.

What a wonderful way to have a day ruined!! Imagine that-- we're actually talking about MUSIC rather than BIN-HEX codes.... [:)]

[DG]

@JBacal said:

DG, is the effect you are searching for similar to the solo violin performance detache articulation-- in other words, legato but with a distinct (but not harsh) change of bow direction?

Best,
Jay

Don't know; I'll check it out tomorrow, but I'll have to delete the Pro Edition first (no hard drive space left!).

DG

[JWL]

@DG said:

Sorry to ruin your day [:D]

So now to make amends; I'm thinking of producing a video of me playing the opening Violin 1 part of the Holberg Suite in real time. All I can tell you is that so far I use two hands two feet and am awaiting the breath controller to arrive. Then the transformation to VI clone will be complete. Mwahahahahahahah [6]

DG

You just gave me an idea--

wouldn't it be great if you had an attachment for your violin compatible with VI so that your violin could control the vibrato and envelope and enter this MIDI data?

Sorry if this is a tad OT... but it's all in an effort to get the desired results.

[DG]

@JWL said:

Hey DG-- I know the Holberg Suite well-- conducted it on tons of concerts last season while "guesting" with various orchestras.

After the initial "galloping" motif, the first violins play the melody beginning with--

B-B-B-E (f#-g)
A-A-A-D
etc..

Are those the notes in question?

There are as many different ways this can be played as there are string sections.

What a wonderful way to have a day ruined!! Imagine that-- we're actually talking about MUSIC rather than BIN-HEX codes.... [:)]

Actually not; it was another section completely, but I'm glad to hear that you are involved in real music, not just the cr*p that passes for it in so many mediums these days [:D]

Ummmmmmmmm, thinking out loud it could be applied to the last note before the "tune" starts I suppose.

FWIW (and rather OT) I had to play the Holberg Suite last week with a local(ish) kiddie orchestra as it turned out that half of the 1st Violin section was ill. Unfortunately as they were my pupils I couldn't really refuse, and I can honestly say that it was the first time that I didn't do my trick in the "tune". "What trick", you ask? Well I know that you didn't, but I'll tell you anyway...! I was renowned for playing an open E very loudly on B-B-B-E. Well I always found it amusing to see how many conductors would actually say anything and after a while it sort of became one of my trademarks. If I didn't do it someone would have complained and accused me of being chicken (shades of Back to the Future). Ah the good old days, before I became the conductor [8-)]

Dang, there goes my rule about not talking about music on this forum [:(]

DG

[DG]

@JWL said:

You just gave me an idea--

wouldn't it be great if you had an attachment for your violin compatible with VI so that your violin could control the vibrato and envelope and enter this MIDI data?

Sorry if this is a tad OT... but it's all in an effort to get the desired results.

Don't think that I hadn't thought of this. A Keyboard is the worst possible thing for playing music, as so many of the devices to make things sound expressive are just that; devices. Ideally I would input the notes (on any instrument) and use some sort of Breath Controller to apply the articulation (along with a ribbon controller to do vibrato).

DG

[JWL]

@JWL said:

You just gave me an idea--

wouldn't it be great if you had an attachment for your violin compatible with VI so that your violin could control the vibrato and envelope and enter this MIDI data?

Sorry if this is a tad OT... but it's all in an effort to get the desired results.

A Keyboard is the worst possible thing for playing music

Ah-- you're talking to a pianist here!! I know-- a MIDI keyboard is not the best in terms of emulating behaviors of non-keyboard instruments in the context of sample libraries.

"...the worst possible thing for playing music..." [:D]

[DG]

@JWL said:

You just gave me an idea--

wouldn't it be great if you had an attachment for your violin compatible with VI so that your violin could control the vibrato and envelope and enter this MIDI data?

Sorry if this is a tad OT... but it's all in an effort to get the desired results.

A Keyboard is the worst possible thing for playing music

Ah-- you're talking to a pianist here!! I know-- a MIDI keyboard is not the best in terms of emulating behaviors of non-keyboard instruments in the context of sample libraries.

"...the worst possible thing for playing music..." [:D]
But I'm allowed to be critical of keyboard instruments, as piano is one of the instruments that I have played professionally [H]

DG

[JWL]

Hmm. The old "open string" trick. I've encountered that before in rehearsal and dreaded the arguments that ensued afterwards. It's no different when a conductor asks for a louder forte or a softer piano-- and the request is not honored. The choices seem to be either hearing open strings sticking out or mutiny...

I thought the VSL forum was the one place I could get away from string players who tend to be generally opposed to high end sample libraries that are finding their way onto film scores, etc., and in effect putting orchestral players "out of work" (in situations where there is, ironically, no budget for an orchestra anyway). By that statement I commend you for your deditcation to PE and VI (despite the keyboard comment!!). : )

@DG said:

Ummmmmmmmm, thinking out loud it could be applied to the last note before the "tune" starts I suppose.

The most important thing in this case is to find a patch with the proper vibrato behaviors, but because every violinist has their own ideas about how such a note should be played, VI might offer offer limited choices right out of the box. The closest you are going get, I think, is with some method of layering or custom cross-fading of a sort, be that a method of putting patches in cell layers and using CC#'s to control various elements of the component sounds or to load two or more instances of a VI on tracks with duplicate MIDI note data for a greater control over the blend and behavior of these elements.

Other than combining Solo, Chamber, and Orchestral string elements, it's still a little tricky to pin down your intent here. Please offer additional examples. Is this a case where there is just one note in a series, or a succession of notes with the articulation and vibrato you seek?