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  • Looking for suggestions

    I've been lurking through this forum for a while now but haven't done much posting. Well, over the holidays I got the Epic Horns and was so inspired by their rich sonority that I decided to post a little work. Please take a listen and see what you think. Any suggestions regarding orchestration or mixing are more than welcome.

    http://home.comcast.net/~bonsaistudios/mp3/Celebration.mp3">http://home.comcast.net/~bonsaistudios/mp3/Celebration.mp3

    Thanks!

    Euphking

  • Very nice quality!

    Best,
    Jay

  • What did you use to make this piece as loud as it is. Everytime I try to get a piece this loud, it doesn't matter how much limiting or compression I use, I can never get it above a certain volume.

    Nice tune, also nice reverb. What did you use for that?

  • Jay:

    Thanks for the reply. I have to say I'm delighted you enjoyed my work, especially considering the amazing quality of what you do! Do you have any suggestions on how to improve it either compositionally or from a mixing standpoint?

    Hetoreyn:

    Thank you for your reply. Honestly I have struggled with compression and limiting as well. I find most of the time when I use compression I don't like what it does to the sound, particularly the tails of cymbals. I'm sure that's because I don't have a strong grasp on how to set them. I tried several different approaches and settings using Logic's Multipres and Limiter, but I just wasn't happy with the results. So I took them out altogether, and adjusted the levels of all the individual instruments until the balance was what I wanted and everything fit within my dynamic range. So... long story short, it's uncompressed and unlimited. [:)]

    As for reverb, I use 3 buses for Near, Mid, and Far instruments (thanks Beat!) each with Space Designer using '1.6s_Grand Hall'. I adjusted the pre-delay and the amount of direct signal a bit on each one to try and create the impression of a little more space. Finally I put a little reverb overall, but this time used Space Designer and '2.9s_On the Field Natural' as the IR, if you can believe that. Marching band meets orchestra.

    Speaking of compression, I would love to hear suggestions from others on how to tame wild levels, particularly depending on the end use of the music. Would this be an acceptable mix if it were intended for film or TV? A CD release? And what settings do people use for compression that don't change the reverb and cymbal tails?

    Thanks again for your feedback!

    Euphking

  • This sounds very good. I had a faint feeling the sustain note at the beginning maybe should get a little softer as others played over it, and that the horns image sounded a little larger than it should, but these were not really very noticeable. Interesting and attractive sounding piece.

  • Interesting. I think I'll try that on one of my new pieces. (Using no compression and limiting.) And I also use Beats Near, Middle and Far, technique with the Reverb but I don't seem to be able to get the clarity that I want, so I will try your suggestions there.

    I used to work in a studio where we had a TC electronics "Finalizer". That thing was awesome. You had to push really hard to actually overclip a song in that thing. And so when I'm using the same techniques in logic with compressors and limiters it is really irritating when I don't get the same kind of control and results as I had using the finalizer. I guess TC's algorithms are just plain better.

    Would love to get a software version of the Finalizer for Logic .. that'd be sweet.

    Still, thanks much for your hints.

  • Thank you William for the suggestions. I totally agree about the sustain notes, as that's what I would do as a conductor were it a live ensemble, but I hadn't noticed it in this piece. As for the horns, what can I say... [:O]ops: I partly wrote the piece for my in-laws, who got me the Epic Horns for Christmas. I wanted to make sure they heard them. [[;)]]

    I certainly don't have all the answers, Hetoreyn, regarding finalizing a piece, so if you come up with any other ideas, I trust you'll post them here. I feel like I have so much to learn, but I think that's why I enjoy it so much. I guess that's what makes this forum so valuable, too.

    If anyone else has any comments, I would love to hear them!

    Thanks again,

    Euphking

  • Euphking...

    one thing immediately recognized is that the hornist has a huge lung, some caesura would help.

    .

  • I'm a Euphonium player, and you would think I would notice that! [:O]ops:
    Hey, It's a section of 8, they can stagger breath, right? [;)]

    I took another listen, and I agree there are a couple places where an obvious breath should go. Thank you for bringing that to my attention!

    Euphking

  • Don't worry to much !

    I sometimes put a weight on a low bassclarinet, and eat breakfast to it !

    [:D]

  • euphking or davetubaking, please discuss what you know of the differences between euphonium, baritone horn and tenor tuba. I like hearing about these great instruments. There are many problems with nomenclature, especially between American and English, and the history is complex. And of course Wagner complicated things by stupidly calling his modified horns "tuben."

  • William,

    Ah, a question that has sparked many discussions amongst euphonium and tuba players. I've asked and been asked that question several times and the answer is always different, but here's my take on it. And sorry in advanced for the long post.

    In the US, Euphonium and Baritone are often used synonymously, particularly in the general public. Amongst musicians, the euphonium traditionally has a conical bore (tubing shaped like a cone) and often a 4th valve that functions the same way as an F attachment on a trombone. It's bore is also often a little larger than what we consider a baritone. This is what most professional players (military bands) play. In a band, it's role is similar to that of a cello in an orchestra, and it's sound is rich, mellow, warm, and can be very lyrical. (I love finding people that appreciate the beautiful sound of a well played euphonium!)

    On the other hand, the baritone in the US is actually a hybrid between what the English call a Euphonium and Baritone. It is similar in wrap to a euphonium, but has a more cylindrical bore and only three valves. It is most common in our elementary and high schools, and is somewhat brighter than the euphonium in tone quality, but not as bright as a true baritone.

    Now... In England (and some in the US) there is the tradition of the brass band, in which there is a euphonium part and a baritone part which often occupy two distinctly different roles in the ensemble. The euphonium part is played on the kind of euphonium described above. The baritone part is played on a true baritone, which is again mostly cylindrical bored, but with a distinctly smaller bore and wrapped smaller than the 'American' baritone. This part is written in the upper tessitura of the instrument and will sound much brighter than a euphonium would.

    As for Tenor tuba, I'll leave that to DaveTubaKing. That and the Wagner tuba. Which I believe is pitched in C, making it a whole step higher than a modern euphonium. But again, I'll have to leave that explanation to our resident tuba expert.

    Hope that helps!

    Euphking

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    @William said:

    euphking or davetubaking, please discuss what you know of the differences between euphonium, baritone horn and tenor tuba. I like hearing about these great instruments. There are many problems with nomenclature, especially between American and English, and the history is complex. And of course Wagner complicated things by stupidly calling his modified horns "tuben."


    When Wagner says “Tuben” it can mean different things, 1) all instruments present of the “Bügelhorn” family, 2) plural, all the tubas, 3) all the Wagnertuben.

    If you care to know all about the BĂĽgelhorn family, incl. Tenorhorn etc., just let me know, and i will place a little explanation here.

    .

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    @euphking said:

    ...As for Tenor tuba, I'll leave that to DaveTubaKing. That and the Wagner tuba. Which I believe is pitched in C, making it a whole step higher than a modern euphonium. But again, I'll have to leave that explanation to our resident tuba expert.

    Hope that helps!

    Euphking


    Tenor tuba is Euphonium plain and simple just it's more common orchestral name in the States and Britain; it is the wide bore Bb instrument. The French have a gorgeous looking six valve tenor tuba in C there's a picture in Clifford Bevans Definitive reference book but I've never heard it.

    The Wagner Tuba is not a tuba - it is a big french horn - I don't think it's pitched in C, I think it is Bb and F like the standard horn just wider bore so that the bass register is better playable - I think.

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    @Another User said:

    is not a tuba


    Isn't that a line from an old Arnold Swarchenegger movie?

    Bad humor. Sorry. [:O]ops:

    - Euphking[/code]

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    @DaveTubaKing said:


    The Wagner Tuba is not a tuba - it is a big french horn - I don't think it's pitched in C, I think it is Bb and F like the standard horn just wider bore so that the bass register is better playable - I think.


    Correct. And if memory serves me the Wagner tuba (Horn) in Bb and F is 21 feet, the same tube length as a standard french horn, despite the differing configuration and increased bore size. And again, if my memory is still working, the mouthpiece used on a Wagner Horn is of a size between that of a standard french horn and a Bb Euphonium.
    I've written for Wagner horns as if they were horns, and was taught tp treat them that way in terms of orchestration when i was a student.

    I'm sure brass players will correct me if i'm wrong in regards to configuration or pitch.
    As an added comment, here in Russia the Wagner Horn is very popular, and features prominently in local performances.

    Regards,

    Alex.

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    @hermitage59 said:


    As an added comment, here in Russia the Wagner Horn is very popular, and features prominently in local performances.

    Regards,

    Alex.


    I find that fascinating, particularly because even as a euphonium player here in the states, I've never actually seen or heard a Wagner Horn in person. The closest I've come is VSL's Wagner Tuba, which originally I thought was an odd instrument to include over the euphonium in their library. I truly appreciate the international scope of this forum!

    Thank you for your input, Alex.

    Euphking

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    @hermitage59 said:


    As an added comment, here in Russia the Wagner Horn is very popular, and features prominently in local performances.

    Regards,

    Alex.


    I find that fascinating, particularly because even as a euphonium player here in the states, I've never actually seen or heard a Wagner Horn in person. The closest I've come is VSL's Wagner Tuba, which originally I thought was an odd instrument to include over the euphonium in their library. I truly appreciate the international scope of this forum!

    Thank you for your input, Alex.

    Euphking

    You are most welcome.
    It's been one the many rewards of private study here in Russia to hear again and become familiar once again with this delighful instrument. Played softly in the c2/c3 register it is an ideal tone to complement cellos in darker slower music. And it's as versatile as a competently played euphonium in bright and spirited passages.
    The wagner horn also sits nicely in the tonal field between Bassoons and french horns, or french horns and concert tubas. Not as thick in tone as the tuba, nor as crackly as the french horn when played strongly, the wagner horn is a great answering fanfare voice to french horns, or trombones and tubas.

    And it's unique 'middle brass' tone marks it out as yet another alternative for orchestral solos.

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • [[:|]]

    Wagnertuba is a tuba, but not a bass keyed-bugle from the bugle brass instrument family.

    Wagnertuba, Wagner-Tuba, Horntuba, also knows as Waldhorntuba. (germ., tuben is plural of tuba). The two Wagnertuben are: Tenortuba in Bb, and Baßtuba in F. Initially they where constructed by commission of Wagner for the "Ring". First use in “Rheingold” . The idea was to ennoble the sound of the Tuba, and cross it with the Hornsound, and extend the sound of the Waldhorn down to the Basstuba. The measure (germ. Mensur) is smaller then the Basstuba, and have “Hornstürzen”, and are blown with a Waldhorn mouthpiece today, but the original mouthpiece had a wider bore, therefor for older instruments a adapter is needed. Notation of Tenortuba as B-alto and B-basso. Notation of Horntuben are not uniform, but Hornists are used to this complications, for example a sounding D is notated as E in B-alto etc..

    Wagnertuben: Bruckner: 7. Symphonie, 2. Satz (Adagio), this was the first time they where used in a symphony orchestra. Richard Strauss’s opera "Elektra", "Die Frau ohne Schatten", and "Alpensinfonie". Also first edition 1911 of Strawinsky’s“Feuervogel“.

    .

    The Euphonium belongs to another instrument family, the valved bugle horns.

    - FlĂĽgelhorn in Bb and C.
    - Althorn in F oder Es.
    - Tenorhorn, in C oder Bb. Old form was oval, new also straight.
    - Baritonhorn in Bb (Bariton, Baryton, Baritonhorn, Bb tenor tuba). Baritone has three valves,

    - Euphonium, a Baritonhorn with four valves.
    http://www.lowbrassnmore.com/euponiumhistory.htm

    - Saxhorns.
    - Tuben: Basstuba in F, Kontrabasstuba in C oder B, Doppeltuba in F/C oder F/B.
    etc.

    .

    Excuse me DaveTubaKing, and Best Regards from the lower left corner of the austrian-bavarian traingle

    [H]

    .

  • That is not true.

    All except one of the Wagner tubas are modified horns. They are not of the tuba family at all. I played horn in the Bruckner 7th and all the Wagner tuba parts were played by hornists (as personal testimony!) Forsyth discusses how only one of the Wagner tubas is an actual tuba. The bore is only a little larger than a horn, and far smaller than true tubas. They are "slender half-tube instruments" like horns. The true tuba Wagner introduced was the "kontrabass" which is not the same as the other contrabass tuba. However it was an actual tuba in its basic construction and originally pitched in C.

    BTW You ought to be careful contradicting tuba players. They are often rather LARGE. They take after their instrument. A tuba player I knew walked from his house and carried his instrument on his shoulder every day to rehearsal. He looked something like the governor of California.