I hesitate to get on these threads, but...

I think that if you do the math the upgrade is reasonable. This upgrade is not an apples to apples upgrade, and that affects the numbers.

The biggest issue I believe is VSL's wording of the new upgrade paths on this website. Tremendous misunderstandings could have been avoided if the language was cleaner, explaining the VIP path to the extended or full or whatever the heck they call it now. I mean, come on, the wording was "upgrade to the solo strings extended for only EU35!" Nothing was said that one had to purchase the standard set at that time. Or if it did it wasn't part of the tag line at Ilio or on the splash page of the VI here. One had to search further to find out that there was an extra purchasing step to the process. VERY misleading. If you don't believe me, just reread your forums.

What the advert SHOULD have said was "new VSL customers get the extended cube for 11,000 grand but VIP PE members get it for only 6,500!!"

Don't break the upgrade path in half like you have (standard full price THEN the extended upgrade). It's bull. I'll tell you why:

There isn't a PE owner out there that wants to upgrade to the standard VI cube. They would LOSE money. Especially when they pay pennies for the extended upgrade after that. All you had to do was say that PE VIP members were not eligible for a standard VI cube.

Of course people are going to be pissed. I was.

Clark

@DG said:

If you install all the samples on your G5 as well as the PCs then all you will have to transfer is the dongle. If you want to split up sections (not instruments) then just get another dongle.

It would end up being a lot of dongle juggling for me. If I bought the library, I'd split it between four dongles. If I wanted to work on my G5 alone, I'd have to move all four dongles from the PCs to the G5. Then, if I started a project small on the G5 and wanted to expand it, I'd have to print all those tracks if I wanted to fire up my four PCs.

I also like to leave my dongles in place, for stability's sake. Moving them around increases the chance of frying one or damaging the connector.

Lee Blaske

Too bad someone hasn't invented a dongle that is nework-based and could somehow validate that it is only used by a single user (e.g., authenticate machines that can use the dongle). This would alleviate many dongle headaches. As it is, I am very reluctant to go to any dongle based system. I finally got away from Logic and am completely dongleless at the moment.

And then there is the issue of those who are not at all excited about the closed samples with dongle method that is now in play...
I was very saddened when I learned of this.

All I ever wanted was even more samples/articulations.. [*-)]
And my support has been with VSL all along since they are the only ones who do orchestral sampling in a really seriuos way.
When I chose to purchase a VSL library, it wasn't like other purchases (such as.. choosing a brand of toilet paper.. [:D] ), it was more akin in feeling to making a contribution to an arts organization (local orchestra, or conservatory, etc.) because of the unique mentality behind this sampling project. It was (is!) something worth supporting, so that the project can continue and reach even new heights.

To date no one else is even trying in any seriously comparable way....

@Lee Blaske said:

At the end of the day, however, they're going to want to move product (hopefully, a LOT of it).

Speaking in general, I wouldn't be surprised seeing strong rebates on music software, next year.

Maybe I'm only wishfully thinking.

Time will tell.

[[;)]]

@Another User said:

Too bad someone hasn't invented a dongle that is nework-based

this is based on a license server software and exists since many years, it is used eg. by softimage and avid XSI. of course you have to purchase each network license seperately there and it is not always simple to get this stuff running, but if, it works actually cross-platform.
uinfortunately also it is cracked since years and therefore worthless to protect your investment ...
christian

...

@Another User said:

Another drawback of the new VI, for me, would be that it would put a crimp in how I'd really like to use it. I have two modes of operation in my studio. For a lot of simpler projects, I just stick with all the stuff in my GS (with Logic as the front end of a PT HD Accel system). When requirements are greater, I'll fire up my additional four PCs. Ideally, if I did the VSL VI update, I'd like to have everything on my G5, but then also have it split between the other PCs. It doesn't seem like I'll be able to do this.
Lee Blaske

If you install all the samples on your G5 as well as the PCs then all you will have to transfer is the dongle. If you want to split up sections (not instruments) then just get another dongle.

DG

Everything Lee said is valid AFAIC. Very good points.

The repetition is the really big thing here, because the current repetition tool is convoluted and I don't know anyone that ever gets their head around it so as to actually bother using it. That's disappointing because you would expect with that many gigs of samples dedicated to repetition, you should be able to use them properly. I only have First Edition and there are tons of repetition in that - so what it's like in Pro, heaven knows. So, at a big extra cost, repetition will now presumably work flawlessly and all those samples will be useful again - not especially happy about that though.

The problem with costing a thing like VI, is volume. It's not the same as selling pepsi cola. There is a limited market and unfortunately that is reflected in the cost.

The other interesting thing - selling on the license of the sample library. It maybe OK to do that once, but it could easily go from secondary markets, to tertiary and so on. No financial reward there for the development company. The only way that would work financially - based on the dongle method - would be for the parent company to charge an annual users fee.

But a lot of this boils down to piracy by the looks of it.

Just some thoughts.

@Another User said:

The other interesting thing - selling on the license of the sample library. It maybe OK to do that once, but it could easily go from secondary markets, to tertiary and so on. No financial reward there for the development company. The only way that would work financially - based on the dongle method - would be for the parent company to charge an annual users fee.

Disagree again. Secondary markets bring in more customers who eventually pay the originating company for upgrade fees and incremental product sales. Every new customer no matter how they initially became one is a cash cow for the company in the long term.

By the way, Martin says in the other thread, that VI license wil be transferrable under certain conditions.

@dbudde said:

I disagree. I can easily imagine a greater 10x increase in units sold if the price of SC were 1K instead of 10K. This would be more profitable both initially and longer term. And a larger customer base to begin with would mean more incremental business with upgrades.
Disagree again. Secondary markets bring in more customers who eventually pay the originating company for upgrade fees and incremental product sales. Every new customer no matter how they initially became one is a cash cow for the company in the long term.

By the way, Martin says in the other thread, that VI license wil be transferrable under certain conditions.

I thought about that - and you may be correct. Limited market though and there's always the possibilty of saturation. I don't know if I'd want to take that chance, business wise, given possible concerns with things like cash flow.

Yes, the dongle system will help with transfers - I didn't see that originally.

@PaulR said:

Limited market though and there's always the possibilty of saturation.

I wish the market was that limited. It seems that these days, the line of producer/composers competing for any significant job winds around the block. [[;)]]

Lee Blaske

I TOTALLY agree with you, Lee. Especially now, just ANYONE with a computer THINKS he/she is a composer. The market has gotten VERY clogged with that. At the end, though, the difference becomes obvious to the clients, but it SOOOOOOOOOO annoying!
There has been a lot of whinning about the VSL prices...
(PLEASE note: I don`t mean anybody in particullar. This is NOT an personal attack on anyone.) ...but, those people should just realize that perhaps this library is not targeted to them. This library is targeted to a group of people who can buy it with no problem at all, or reccoup their investment very soon, and/or people who has made enough money out of this library to buy it 40 times over. AND, those people usually don´t waste time bithching about prices. They`re busy working.

I actually like the fact that this library is a luxory. And a luxory, by definition, is not meant for every single body.
If I want to buy a great house in a REALLY nice neighborhood (VSL), but realize I can not afford it, I will not go whinning to the real estate company about the prices. They would tell me to buy one in a not-so-nice-neighborhood, somewhere where I can actually afford one (Garritan, The
quantum leap stuff, etc)
Yes, they could probablly have more sales if they lowered the prices, and therefore grow to a big company, etc, but who says that´s what they want/should do? Maybe they like keeping things not too big (as the size of the company) and being more personal... After all, a lot of times, nice things come in small packages... They will grow at their own pace, and their R & D will be, as it´s obviously been, a big priority.

People in this forum has been so rude and insulting to the VSL people that makes me go mad!"!We all should be lucky and thankfull that there are people on this world with such talent and passion that, becasue of their work, we can, for the first time ever, actually compose stuff and have it sound like ACTUAL MUSIC with an amazing virtual orchestra under our fingertips. At least for
me (and I know that for a LOT of other users too) investing in this library was a HUGE difference in my carreer, both, professionally and financially.

Personally, I would have no problem at all if this animal costed twice as much, even 3 times more. It is an investment that pays off itself.
I have a lot of respect and gratitude to all the VSL team.

And just to think about the ammount of time I will save by using the VI makes me scream with joy! That means I will be able to write more music, with more and more patches, with less programming and, hopefuly, make more money .
VSL: Please keep things like they are now (about the pricing), and keep the GREAT stuff coming!

Cheers,

Fernando

@Miguélez said:

but, those people should just realize that perhaps this library is not targeted to them. This library is targeted to a group of people who can buy it with no problem at all, or reccoup their investment very soon, and/or people who has made enough money out of this library to buy it 40 times over. AND, those people usually don´t waste time bithching about prices. They`re busy working.Fernando

Fernando, The guys who could happily pay 40 times over are using custom libs. VSL is directly aimed at users like me. I need the best option possible but can't afford a custom made lib.

Since I was one of those who strongly objected .... not to the price of VSL ... but to the manner they impletemented or disregarded their VIP promises.

VSL Pro Edition is worth every penny. Maybe the full cube is too. No argument from me there.

I just object to having to pay full price for the Cube Standard VI when I already own those samples in my pro edition.
Simple as that.
A reasonable crossgrade fee is all that was wanted for.

Since that did not happen and i would indeed be "paying for the same samples twice" the issues are the following.

If I buy the cube VI
1) will vsl at some future point abondon me again when the create a NEW improved VI?? or whatever it will be called.
since they seem comfortable making me pay twice for the same samples why not three times?

2) does the VI REALLY improve the workflow? while the video demos look great there is still an open question about how much time will be saved VI vs. Pro Edtion. The violin was very impressive but it still took 15 key switches ... not exactly playable.

3) VSL is now a software company. All samples tied to their software. How will they be with updates when OS's move on? once they have our $10K how nice are they going to be about updates. Or do they pull out some Waves WUP BS. So far their have been no statements in this regard.

4) How good are they out working out software bugs ??? There are so many host apps, so many computer variables. NI seems to have been suffering with their MAC apps so why not VSL too? I can easily imagine mac users getting much less performance than PC users? and how quickly will VSL move to Macintel?

5) lost dongle policy?

6) Lee's thoughtful posts on multi computer/dongle issues.

etc etc.

My ultimate point is that much needs to be worked out. Much of it will be a work in progress as VSL work through the unknowable issues that will arise.

This required trust on our part.
Trust that they will be good as a software company.
Trust that updates will be free or really cheap.
Trust that they will not WUP us.
Trust that someday I don't have to pay three times for the same samples when their software moves on.

And trust is what they lost when they abandoned the VIP policy of "never paying for the same samples twice". Regardles of how perfectly they are now parsing that policy.
I did not trust Bill Clinton as he parsed everything that came out of his mouth.
I don't trust Bush as he sidesteps and parses.

All this is of course IMHO. But I have $6k invested in this company and every right to hold them to their publicly proclaimed policies.

VSL may someday get more of my dollars. I am naturally interested in the VI.
But I will not consider buying it until all these issues are resolved. And even then with their new found talent for parsing their policies I would still be cautious.

Which is a shame. I had my money set aside for the cube. I can easily afford it.
I can easily justify the purchase.
So what if put in another 5K.

and three years later ........ when they announce their VSL "hexagon" ......
oops .... no crossgrade.... you have to pay a full $10k for the standard edtion (which is everything you already own but it is now stuck in orhpaned unsupported software)... so you have to pay $10k again for the standard and then another 2K to unlock another X amount of samples ......

Trust is what was lost but ultimately required.

@Another User said:

3) VSL is now a software company. All samples tied to their software. How will they be with updates when OS's move on? once they have our $10K how nice are they going to be about updates. Or do they pull out some Waves WUP BS. So far their have been no statements in this regard.
4) How good are they out working out software bugs ??? There are so many host apps, so many computer variables. NI seems to have been suffering with their MAC apps so why not VSL too? I can easily imagine mac users getting much less performance than PC users? and how quickly will VSL move to Macintel?

Herb said in another thread that any update to universal binaries for intel based macs will be free.

The VSL price doesn't hurt me, just like a lot of users it's the upgrade path that is not....well you've read this already.But I don't really like this idea of VSL being a luxury, it's a kind of elitist thing: if the prices where lower probably they would sell a lot more and maybe earn more money.The point behind this is some people like the idea of being a kind of small group of "professionals"able to buy something.I don't care if a lot of people have access to this library cause for some of them who didn't have the chance to learn how to write/compose/orchestrate etc...it could be a way of learning a lot about an orchestra along with some books of course.And for the others who would think they are going to instantly produce orchestral stuff with the VSL, as you know if you don't know what you're doing, if you have no experience about writing, orchestration etc.... it will sound terrible even if the indidual sounds are great; just playing them like keyboard parts will end with very poor result.

Miguélez, I think you are partly right and partly wrong at the same time...You probably know that wages differ in countries. In the north of Europe, minimum wages are probably 3 or 4 times higher than in Spain, where I come from... same as in your country if compared, let's say, with the States, where you can pull out a 2 minutes cue and receive a 4 or 5 digit paycheck.

In countries like mine where industry is not as developped as in other countries, prices for pro people don't always match other pro's salaries. And for some pro people doing a living with it paying a house, a family and sample libraries is not always that possible to have the latest.

Maybe you are in a position where you can get all those samples very easily and you don't have to "complain" as you mentioned about prices; I'm happy for you.

But IMO even if you want to buy a Mercedes you will try to acheive the best deal, even if you are rich, unless you are probably a fool.

Just my 2 c.

Iván

"I actually like the fact that this library is a luxory. And a luxory, by definition, is not meant for every single body."
Fernando

Wow! [H]

Ivan:

@Another User said:

But IMO even if you want to buy a Mercedes you will try to acheive the best deal, even if you are rich, unless you are probably a fool.

Most of the time yes, of course. But there are some other times when it just feels like a pleasure to buy certain things.... Especially when you know that not only are you getting some of the best sounds/tools available, but also supporting the advance of technology. Also, you can confidentally charge your clients more [:)]
Serioulsly. There are libraries out there to meet everyone´s budget. Why on earth complaining when VSL doesn´t fit someone´s budget?
What I mean by all this is basically: You get great new technology that will allow you to work faster and more efficiently. You also get incredible sounds, you will be able to load more instruments and worry more about composing music than programming. I think VSL is, as this post´s title reads, much more than fair, even cheap...

Sorry, that´s just the way I see it. You get what you pay for. That´s why there are regular things, good things, and great things. There MUST be a difference.

Cheers,
Fernando

I personnally prefer a non elitist world, people tend to live better... just like with education, being part of an elite does not make someone a better person than the others.

Ivan:

@Another User said:

Miguélez, I think you are partly right and partly wrong at the same time...You probably know that wages differ in countries. In the north of Europe, minimum wages are probably 3 or 4 times higher than in Spain, where I come from... same as in your country if compared, let's say, with the States, where you can pull out a 2 minutes cue and receive a 4 or 5 digit paycheck.

Actually, you are right. Point well taken. So I can only speak about how it is in my country. So let me put it this way:
If there are any of my country fellow musicians in here (which I doubt they´d be too many), AND you are one of the forum members that complain about the pricing: DO NOT DISPAIR!!! You´re just one Jingle away from being able to purchase the SC Standard library, and if your client is nice and represents a decent account, you will be able to even buy the whole full library, even if you didn´t own the Pro Edition already. [[:D]]

Well, actually more like 2 Jingles away, since you will be looking at AT LEAST 35% import tax, on top of what you pay for the library, plus whatever the dealer´s cut might be. [:(]

So yes, it is a pricey library. But if you really NEED it, it most likely means you should/could afford it. Look at it as a good investment (as opposed to a new car). In most cases it´s tax deductible (sorry, fellow Mexicans, this does not apply to you unless you are registered as Importer, or pay still more for the dealer´s cut. And good luck finding one ... ) and it will be an awesome tool that will help your music sound SO MUCH better (providing you are a good composer, as I know you are) and work more efficiently.

You can also do a lot of this with other libraries, so I think people should get what they can at that moment.

The ones that feel they are paying for the same sample twice, they could see it differently: They are NOT paying twice. The rest of the money is just going into the new sounds AND the VI, AND the 24 bits. PLUS, you will be able to load almost twice as many instruments on your same machines! Think how many less computers that means, and how many less samplers and side licenses (unless you already bought them [:)] ) and less maintainance that means...

.... and people call that much worse things than a bad deal?!?!?!?!?!?!? [[:|]]

What angers me the most is the way some people have reacted to this. They have even called this "a Fraud". They have been very insulting and pressing too hard.

Anway, we might never agree on this, so just do what you think it´s best for you.

Ya no hagas corages. [[:D]]
Te mando un saludo,


Fernando