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  4. VSL VI and notation software (Finale)?

  • VSL VI and notation software (Finale)?

    J
    J
    It is fairly obvious that the VI functions were designed around the needs of people who play in lines in real time - but I'm not entirely sure how convenient all this is for those of us who generally work from a score?
    In my current workflow, I am able to assign each and every articulation I use as a patch change in my score (via giga of course), and frankly this is very convenient. Keyswitches are generally the enemy of notation based writing, as the those key switch notes are inconvenient and messy to use...
    How is one to call up specific articulations as needed? Also... how is one to assign channels to staves considering how the VI in its current form works (monotimbral)?

    These things may very well have already been addressed in development, but I would certianly like to hear about it if this is the case (and .. even more so if it isn't)! [[;)]]
  • P
    P
    jc5:

    I have precisely the same question. Right now, I work the same way you describe only using Sibellius. I haven't seen this mentioned in any detail on other threads but I certainly haven't read them all. Also Heb and company may have addressed this in their development process.

    This VI is certainly an exciting development and I hope it works as well for those who work the way we do as it will for those who play their lines in. I'm sure we'll find out soon though.

    Be well,

    Poppa
  • J
    J
    As do I, as do I!
    Especially now that notation software companies are finally getting on with implementing decent midi data control features.
  • P
    P
    jc5

    Exactly right about the notation companies MIDI features. Even as a beginner with sample based orchestras, using Sib. 4 is working reasonably well for me. There is still a lot to be done but clearly the notation software companies are getting on with it. So, the question remains, are we a bit out in the cold with the new VI?

    Poppa
  • M
    M
    It would work fine. you don't have to use keyswitches - in fact most of the data is controlled by the lenght of notes and the velocity - things you can easily adjust in finale with articulatitons. Mod wheel stuff is very easy with the midi tool. I didn't see anything in the new tool that forces you to use keyswitches. it should make making clean scores even easier actually. But the price tag is still to high - I can't say that enough. who could possibly afford this?
  • J
    J
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    @magates said:

    It would work fine. you don't have to use keyswitches - in fact most of the data is controlled by the lenght of notes and the velocity - things you can easily adjust in finale with articulatitons. Mod wheel stuff is very easy with the midi tool. I didn't see anything in the new tool that forces you to use keyswitches. it should make making clean scores even easier actually. But the price tag is still to high - I can't say that enough. who could possibly afford this?


    Hmm... I hope your right, but based on what has been shown so far (admitedly little), I am not so sure... How exactly would you switch between a half tone or whole tone trill, or a sustain (and bear in mind, there are several different sustains, and possibly some new ones in play now!), or a pizzicato, etc... From what I can see, there is no patch number that I could assign from Finale (or others from Sibelius and the other options out there) to call up a specific articulation... maybe the feature is in there some where, and that is the sort of thing I would like to find out. [:)]
  • M
    M
    you'd use a chanel change for that kind of stuff just as easy as a patch change.
  • J
    J
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    @magates said:

    you'd use a chanel change for that kind of stuff just as easy as a patch change.


    Hmm... but then we'd end up having one instance of the VI per articulation! That would be... a nightmare really... besides, in the case of Finale the channels are capped at 128 (and that is if you have the latest version, otherwise its 64)...

    This could be a real problem... [*-)]
  • M
    M
    well you'd have to have one channel per unique type of articulation and could combine them alot more than you could in say giga or exs. its a much better solution than what I have no which is using all 128 channels - I hate patch changes anways they always lead to midi glicthes in finale anways. I think you could get away with one main instance and then maybe a couple more for unique stuff - you'd need this regardless of wether your using finale or not. still all moot point if you can't afford it!
  • J
    J
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    @magates said:

    well you'd have to have one channel per unique type of articulation and could combine them alot more than you could in say giga or exs. its a much better solution than what I have no which is using all 128 channels - I hate patch changes anways they always lead to midi glicthes in finale anways. I think you could get away with one main instance and then maybe a couple more for unique stuff - you'd need this regardless of wether your using finale or not. still all moot point if you can't afford it!


    Hmm... I guess we've all had different experiences in our different setups, as well as different ways of working - I for one can't live without patch changes, and use them pretty much exclusively - I've never had any issues with Finale playing them back, and I can tell you the changes can get pretty dense - not at all out of the ordinary for each note in a bar to have a different art, multiplied by all the instruments playing at that given moment. Never an issue... and I've only ever needed as many channels as I have staves in a given score - sixteen staves, sixteen channels. The only exception of course being performance instruments that require their own independent channel.

    If there is a way to signal such changes within the VI, then that could simply things greatly... I have a bad feeling though that this may not be possible... [:(]
    Another thing to be borne in mind is that Finale can only take 8 different midi input sources (4 if your on an older version), so that also limits the number of VIs that can be used...

    Any light that could be shed on any of this would be appreciated!

    Edit:
    Oh, and for the time being I suppose the argument is a tad moot anyhow... [:D] [:'(]
  • M
    M
    what about performance patches. they have to have their own channel because of the performance tool... even in the old vsl. But the other issue I always had was when I was using the midi tool to prorgram dynamics - it was always smoother using difrent channels.
  • J
    J
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    @magates said:

    what about performance patches. they have to have their own channel because of the performance tool... even in the old vsl. But the other issue I always had was when I was using the midi tool to prorgram dynamics - it was always smoother using difrent channels.


    Sure, as I said the performance legatos required their own channel, assigned to layer 2 generally, and did not disrupt things unduly (the fact that in the VI they can co-exist with the other patches is a good thing, and an advance...).

    Regarding the midi tool... that has been a source of frustration for years... it is just downright clunky. Apart from the fact that there is no decent editing interface, or convenient way to view the midi data, it doesn't seem to work consistently.. regardless of whether there are patch changes, or if it is simply one patch for one channel, the transitions are often jerky and unstable... they don't always play back... and they do strange things to the material that follows... [:@]
    Its so frustrating... because all the material is there, it will take a minimal effort on the part of the Finale team to fix it and bring the bloody tool into the 21st century... *sigh* maybe for Finale 2007 (but then again, we've been saying that since Fin2000... aaarghhh [:P] )
  • M
    M
    I had to learn to use it. I have all the bugs worked out. I can get it to work perfectly - check out my mock ups to hear the results. All done via finale. Very worth the time.
  • K
    K
    I'd love to hear from other Sibelius users like Papa Joel concerning how you get different articulations in VSL or VI to respond in Sibelius. I am a blind user who would probably get more out of Sibelius and VSL/VI if I understood better how to associate articulations with patches in Sibelius. All advice appreciated. Currently, I have VSL Horizon Series Opus 1. I just bouht a new computer for VSL and GS3. Then, out comes VI and I hope it can run on a second computer. I'm not interested in seeing this box become a paperweight before it even gets opened.
    Kevin
  • P
    P
    Kevin:

    Have you seen the thread on the VSL forum about Sibelius and the new VI? The users there seem quite knowledgeable about this.

    http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=6891

    Like a few others, I just bought VSL and GS3 a month ago not having even the slightest clue that VI was coming out. I am just beginning to work through the techniques of using various articulations and other patches with the Pro Ed, Performance Tool, Sibelius and Sonar. From what I can tell, this will work very well since that's part of what that kind of set-up is designed for. Whether or not it will be useful in the "New World" of sample engines which VSL is pioneering remains to be seen.

    Regarding your new computer, if you haven't already bought GS3 you might want to wait a bit. The new VI can run either as a stand alone or a plug-in to a sequencer program like Sonar or Cubase. This might be a good direction for you because it appears that Sibelius will be able to send commands to the new VI and you won't have to do all the work of programming the patch changes yourself. The issue of VI not being multi-timbral may also not matter for you. If you have a pretty decent computer, you can run multiple instances of VI and have no problem. You will almost certainly be able to run the new VI on your new computer so you're probably in good shape as far as that's concerned. The only question would then be whether or not the samples you already bought will be useful.

    In any case, you might want to check out that other thread if you haven't already.

    Be Well,

    Poppa
  • M
    M
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    @magates said:



    Hmm... I hope your right, but based on what has been shown so far (admitedly little), I am not so sure... How exactly would you switch between a half tone or whole tone trill, or a sustain (and bear in mind, there are several different sustains, and possibly some new ones in play now!), or a pizzicato, etc... From what I can see, there is no patch number that I could assign from Finale (or others from Sibelius and the other options out there) to call up a specific articulation... maybe the feature is in there some where, and that is the sort of thing I would like to find out. [:)]


    In Finale you can use a hidden measure expression with the playback set to the data dump function. In this way you can send kewswitch data as a midi message.

    Michael Matthews
  • M
    M
    great idea, Jeez I wish I had thought of that. any other tips??? Cause I use finale a lot and I didn't think of that one.
  • M
    M
    No problem. I run Finale on a G5, and use it to drive Logic for my orchestral sketches. My main concern at this point is getting over the 64 channel limitation. Have you had any luck with this?

    Michael
  • M
    M
    yes in finale 2006 128 channels is no problem. I send it to logic and 2 gigas. a couple of things I have to do. Is one insert an empty measure and add a really high non playalbe note to every exs channel to "activate" it in that first blank measure. Also turn recieve extrenal midi sync off in logic. Exs will still drop one or two notes in a whole performance on occasion but it's usable.
  • M
    M
    Are you running Finale on Mac or Windows?

    Michael