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  • VEPro/Logic/Multiport on new M1 Macstudio - yay or nay?

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    Re: VEP 7 with different Midi Ports on Logic does not work here

    Hi Everyone. Apologies for any redundancy. As I'm bopping around from forum to forum I'm getting mixed information. Hopefully some can chime in and help clarify.

    Tiny bit of background. I was happily running Logic on a 2013 Mac trashcan, with a PC slave running VEPro and hosting the majority of my libraries. If my memory serves me, I was using a hacked multiport created by a fellow named Dewdman42 (thank you!). It worked well (after I painfully discovered the multiport template offered by the fine people at Vienna did not actually work) and allowed me to get a lot of work done. Flash forward...finally upgrading. Any day an M1 Ultra Mac Studio, 128gb arrives. Expecting a lot of the usual migration headaches, and planning to start rebuilding templates. I've already seen many complaining about stuck midi notes when using VEPro alongside Logic (sounds like a Logic issue), but before I contend with that potential hurdle, my main question is...is anyone successfully using a multiport with the latest versions of Logic and VEPro on an Apple Silicon machine at this stage?

    I saw a composer named Jeff Beal (jeff_5479) posting about a similar setup, and I believe he stated he did get multiport to work in a current Logic/VEPro/Silicon combination, but then I also saw that he was rebuilding a template entirely within Logic due to the hanging notes issue. So I'm not entirely sure where he's at with things at this point, and if he has abandoned the usage of VEPro in order to get his workflow stable again. I did send him a message to inquire, but also wanted to put this all out here.

    I am aware the significant increase in save times as well as the bloated project storage sizes when NOT using VEPro and operating entirely within Logic. So in my ideal world I'd still be using VEPro to take advantage of those benefits. Not to mention I'd still like to take advantage of my additional PC as a slave given it is a solid machine. But without stable multiport functionality I'm not certain if this would still be the way to go.

    Any thoughts or insights greatly appreciated!


  • Migrating the VE Pro Environnement could be the problem !

    I have propose to look at this problem, but nobody has send me his Logic song without note !

    I use my M3 with VI in Logic, and it runs superfast


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • Thanks for the response Cyril. I'm glad your system is running so well. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your setup? You said "I use my M3 with VI in Logic". Are you saying you're simply loading your 'Virtual Instruments' directly into Logic? Or did you mean your 'Vienna Instruments' directly into Logic? And are you using VEPro at all? If so, are you using VEPro on the same machine and hosting your libraries within VEPro as opposed to directly within Logic as software instrument tracks? If that is the case, are you using AU3 as your plug in? How many ports/total midi channels are you utilizing? Are you experiencing the stuck notes issue many others have been struggling with?

    Any additional info regarding your current setup would be helpful. Thank you!


  • I do not use VE at all, all my VI are IN Logic, same as MIR PRO 3D

    The load is spread accross the core much better.

    @flying-poo said:

    Thanks for the response Cyril. I'm glad your system is running so well. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your setup? You said "I use my M3 with VI in Logic". Are you saying you're simply loading your 'Virtual Instruments' directly into Logic? Or did you mean your 'Vienna Instruments' directly into Logic? And are you using VEPro at all? If so, are you using VEPro on the same machine and hosting your libraries within VEPro as opposed to directly within Logic as software instrument tracks? If that is the case, are you using AU3 as your plug in? How many ports/total midi channels are you utilizing? Are you experiencing the stuck notes issue many others have been struggling with?


    Any additional info regarding your current setup would be helpful. Thank you!


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • Hi,

    My personal experience may not be entirely relevant, but I thought it might be helpful to you.

    I bought VEP a dozen years ago because it allowed me to share tasks between two computers and gain power compared to Logic. Over the years, computers have become more and more efficient (and with more RAM) and I have easily been able to do my work with a single computer.

    I stopped using VEP (7) for VSL instruments about two years ago. I did tests with heavy configurations (around 60-80 instruments, including Dimension Strings and Brass) and I realized that Logic had become as fast (if not faster) than VEP in handling all these Synchron Player instances.

    This has greatly simplified my workflow (including managing articulations with Logic's scripter and Audio Grocery's tools).

    A few months ago, I acquired a MacStudio M2 similar to yours. In practice, I rarely use more than 25% of the CPUs' power.

    VEP, of course, offers other features, but I've never needed them.

    Good luck with your musical projects!

    Claude


  • This to show that there are plenty resources on my M3 using ONLY VI, a few K7

    This is the CPU load on the final tutti of two songs with about 100 tracks


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • Claude, your story is very helpful. Sounds like you went through a near identical experience. So much time, effort, trial & error etc. is dedicated to determining, and then actually implementing the 'best approach' with these types of systems. Once we have a setup and our workflow actually stable and working, it requires quite a leap of faith to abandon those past efforts in favor of something more current. The 'don't fix it if it ain't broke' is deeply embedded. I'm leaning more and more toward a single computer rig. The new machine just arrived, so I'll hopefully know sooner rather than later. Thanks much for sharing!

    @C-B said:

    Hi,


    My personal experience may not be entirely relevant, but I thought it might be helpful to you.


    I bought VEP a dozen years ago because it allowed me to share tasks between two computers and gain power compared to Logic. Over the years, computers have become more and more efficient (and with more RAM) and I have easily been able to do my work with a single computer.


    I stopped using VEP (7) for VSL instruments about two years ago. I did tests with heavy configurations (around 60-80 instruments, including Dimension Strings and Brass) and I realized that Logic had become as fast (if not faster) than VEP in handling all these Synchron Player instances.


    This has greatly simplified my workflow (including managing articulations with Logic's scripter and Audio Grocery's tools).


    A few months ago, I acquired a MacStudio M2 similar to yours. In practice, I rarely use more than 25% of the CPUs' power.


    VEP, of course, offers other features, but I've never needed them.


    Good luck with your musical projects!


    Claude


  • Appreciate Cyril. You're machine is barely breaking a sweat!

    @Cyril-Blanc said:

    This to show that there are plenty resources on my M3 using ONLY VI, a few K7


    This is the CPU load on the final tutti of two songs with about 100 tracks





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    @flying-poo said:

    Re: VEP 7 with different Midi Ports on Logic does not work here



    Hi Everyone. Apologies for any redundancy. As I'm bopping around from forum to forum I'm getting mixed information. Hopefully some can chime in and help clarify.


    Tiny bit of background. I was happily running Logic on a 2013 Mac trashcan, with a PC slave running VEPro and hosting the majority of my libraries. If my memory serves me, I was using a hacked multiport created by a fellow named Dewdman42 (thank you!). It worked well (after I painfully discovered the multiport template offered by the fine people at Vienna did not actually work) and allowed me to get a lot of work done. Flash forward...finally upgrading. Any day an M1 Ultra Mac Studio, 128gb arrives. Expecting a lot of the usual migration headaches, and planning to start rebuilding templates. I've already seen many complaining about stuck midi notes when using VEPro alongside Logic (sounds like a Logic issue), but before I contend with that potential hurdle, my main question is...is anyone successfully using a multiport with the latest versions of Logic and VEPro on an Apple Silicon machine at this stage?


    I saw a composer named Jeff Beal (jeff_5479) posting about a similar setup, and I believe he stated he did get multiport to work in a current Logic/VEPro/Silicon combination, but then I also saw that he was rebuilding a template entirely within Logic due to the hanging notes issue. So I'm not entirely sure where he's at with things at this point, and if he has abandoned the usage of VEPro in order to get his workflow stable again. I did send him a message to inquire, but also wanted to put this all out here.


    I am aware the significant increase in save times as well as the bloated project storage sizes when NOT using VEPro and operating entirely within Logic. So in my ideal world I'd still be using VEPro to take advantage of those benefits. Not to mention I'd still like to take advantage of my additional PC as a slave given it is a solid machine. But without stable multiport functionality I'm not certain if this would still be the way to go.


    Any thoughts or insights greatly appreciated!

    'FP', you've made some statements here that don't stand up to fact-checking and need to be sorted out to avert yet more misinformation, gaslighting and misleading of users on the topic of VEP-Logic multiport functionality and performance.

    The VEP-multiport workaround provided by VSL for use in Logic's Environment, though not perfect, is nevertheless effective and still by far the best workaround available. There is currently no known way of providing flawless multiport operation for VEP by means of user-constructs in Logic's Environment; this is due to Logic's inherent design being unable to make 2 or more Environment messages 'stick together' under all circumstances.

    Having seen and studied the stress-test results and technical explanation provided by @Macker in this forum, I'm in no doubt that the VSL workaround is head and shoulders above the 3rd party "hack" from @dewdman42 you mentioned, in terms of freedom from hanging notes under realistically stressful operational conditions. @dewdman42's "hack" was based on the unsupported assertion that VSL's workaround was not handling note-offs correctly, and was configured using a technically irrelevant (and as it turns out, substantially more fault-prone) trick suggested by a member of the Logic Pro Help forum. (BTW, this particular 3rd party seems to have a habit of crying "wolf!" - e.g. yelling that X Daw by AudioGrocery was now fatally flawed by Apple's removal of certain - actually arcane and irrelevant - javascript constructs from Logic's MIDI Scripter, but which 'dramatic news' turned out to be wholly untrue.)

    But in fact the actual issue, as revealed by @Macker's tests, can be understood as an old-fashioned asynchronous realtime event queueing problem; it's not simply a 'missing' MIDI Note-Off problem. Specifically, a port address tag message can become separated from its accompanying MIDI data message intended for that port address, by another message intended for a different port, unfortunately occurring asynchronously at precisely that moment of vulnerability in between the two messages of the intended pair. Hence, for example, a MIDI Note Off can be sent to the wrong port and thereby leave the originally addressed MIDI note to hang forever. This 'queue-jumping' problem can occur only within one cluster of port address-tagging objects in Logic's Environment that are all connected to one VEP client plugin.

    What are the chances of this accidental separation of - by unfortunate asynchronous insertion between - the port address tag message and its accompanying MIDI data message, in the Logic Environment workaround? It appears to be dependant on (1) how much time elapses between the port address tag message being asserted and the accompanying MIDI message being asserted, and (2) how busy the other ports and MIDI channels are within any one particular cluster of ports connected to any one particular VEP Client plugin.

    @Macker's tests ran the VSL Environment workaround (16 ports in all tests) side by side with @dewdman42's hack (using port counts between 2 and 16 in various separate test runs), using a common input stream of MIDI note messages for both. The tests showed no separation of port message-pairs in the VSL case during test runs of up to half an hour. But the @dewdman42 case - in a matter of minutes - suffered separation of message-pairs even in the least stressful scenario of only 2 different ports in the port-cluster! Why should this be? It appears the VSL workaround is the best possible way to minimise the vulnerable time gap between the port address tag and the associated MIDI data in every message-pair; but @dewdman42's hack happens to lengthen that all-important time gap to the point at which the hack is horribly vulnerable to stochastic interruption and disordering of port messages - even in not-so-busy conditions.

    I'll go so far as to say that even compared to the much more convenient use of the AUv3 Beta version of VEP client plugins in Logic (AS or Intel), users are probably still better off using VSL's venerable and still successful Environment workaround with standard AUv2 VEP client plugins - given that the number of ports in each port cluster does not exceed, say, 16. (I seem to recall an advisory note from VSL that recommended using their Environment workaround with no more than about 10 ports per VEP instance; but I can't find it now and my recollection of that number might be incorrect.) That is, "better off" until we have an unconditionally-released version of the AUv3 VEP client plugin.

    As scientists in the field of medical research are painfully aware, mere testimonials - no matter how powerful or persuasive the propaganda element may be - are no substitute for hard scientific or engineering evidence. I don't know why you've attempted to tilt the pitch in favour of @dewdman42's technically irrelevant and operationally inferior "snake oil" hack, compared to VSL's workaround, given that objective and reproducible engineering test results have well and truly settled that 'contest' - oh, unless of course you are him, posting here in a another new disguise again, LOL.


    "The US 1st Amendment does NOT allow you to yell "FIRE!" falsely in a packed cinema, nor in an online forum." ~ Dobi (60kg Cane da pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese)
  • Just forget VEP and use your instruments IN LOGIC

    If you really want to use VEP a solution is to use IAC

    @Helmholtz said:


    @flying-poo said:

    Re: VEP 7 with different Midi Ports on Logic does not work here







    Hi Everyone. Apologies for any redundancy. As I'm bopping around from forum to forum I'm getting mixed information. Hopefully some can chime in and help clarify.




    Tiny bit of background. I was happily running Logic on a 2013 Mac trashcan, with a PC slave running VEPro and hosting the majority of my libraries. If my memory serves me, I was using a hacked multiport created by a fellow named Dewdman42 (thank you!). It worked well (after I painfully discovered the multiport template offered by the fine people at Vienna did not actually work) and allowed me to get a lot of work done. Flash forward...finally upgrading. Any day an M1 Ultra Mac Studio, 128gb arrives. Expecting a lot of the usual migration headaches, and planning to start rebuilding templates. I've already seen many complaining about stuck midi notes when using VEPro alongside Logic (sounds like a Logic issue), but before I contend with that potential hurdle, my main question is...is anyone successfully using a multiport with the latest versions of Logic and VEPro on an Apple Silicon machine at this stage?




    I saw a composer named Jeff Beal (jeff_5479) posting about a similar setup, and I believe he stated he did get multiport to work in a current Logic/VEPro/Silicon combination, but then I also saw that he was rebuilding a template entirely within Logic due to the hanging notes issue. So I'm not entirely sure where he's at with things at this point, and if he has abandoned the usage of VEPro in order to get his workflow stable again. I did send him a message to inquire, but also wanted to put this all out here.




    I am aware the significant increase in save times as well as the bloated project storage sizes when NOT using VEPro and operating entirely within Logic. So in my ideal world I'd still be using VEPro to take advantage of those benefits. Not to mention I'd still like to take advantage of my additional PC as a slave given it is a solid machine. But without stable multiport functionality I'm not certain if this would still be the way to go.




    Any thoughts or insights greatly appreciated!


    'FP', you've made some statements here that don't stand up to fact-checking and need to be sorted out to avert yet more misinformation, gaslighting and misleading of users on the topic of VEP-Logic multiport functionality and performance.


    The VEP-multiport workaround provided by VSL for use with Logic, though not perfect, is effective and still by far the best workaround available. There is currently no way of providing flawless multiport operation for VEP in Logic's Environment, due to Logic's inherent design being unable to make 2 or more Environment-generated messages 'stick together' under all circumstances.


    Having seen and studied the stress-test results and technical explanation provided by @Macker in this forum, I'm in no doubt that the VSL workaround is head and shoulders above the 3rd party "hack" by @dewdman42 you mentioned, in terms of freedom from hanging notes under realistically stressful operational conditions. @dewdman42's "hack" was based on the unsupported assertion that that VSL's workaround was not handling note-offs correctly, and was configured using a technically irrelevant (and as it turns out, substantially more fault-prone) trick suggested by a member of the Logic Pro Help forum.


    But in fact the actual problem, as revealed by @Macker's tests, is that a port address message can become separated from its accompanying MIDI data intended for that port address, by another message intended for a different port occurring at that precise moment. Hence, for example, a MIDI Note Off can be sent to the wrong port and thereby leave the originally intended MIDI note to hang forever.


    What are the chances of this accidental separation of - by erroneous insertion between - port-address and intended MIDI data in the Logic Environment workaround? It appears to be dependant on (1) how much time elapses between the port-address being asserted and the intended MIDI message being asserted, and (2) how busy the other ports and MIDI channels are within any one particular cluster of ports connected to any one particular VEP Client instrument.


    @Macker's tests ran the VSL workaround (16 ports in all tests) side by side, using the same input data stream, with @dewdman42's hack (using port counts between 2 and 16 in various separate test runs). The tests showed no separation of message-pairs in the VSL case; but the @dewdman42 case - in a matter of minutes - suffered separation of message-pairs even in the least stressful scenario of only 2 different ports in the port-cluster! Why should this be? It appears the VSL workaround is the best possible way to minimise the time elapsed between the port-address and MIDI-data in every message-pair, whereas all the @dewdman42 hack did was lengthen that all-important time gap to the point at which the hack is horribly vulnerable to stochastic separation of message-pairs - even in not-so-busy conditions.


    I'll go so far as to say that even compared to the much more convenient use of the AUv3 Beta version of VEP client plugins in Logic (AS or Intel), users are very probably still better off using VSL's venerable and still successful workaround with standard VEP client plugins - given that they restrict the number of ports in each port cluster to no more than, say, 16. That is, "better off" until we have a fully operational and unconditionally-released version of the Auv3 VEP client plugin.


    I don't know why you've attempted to tilt the pitch in favour of @dewdman42's technically irrelevant and operationally inferior hack, compared to VSL's workaround, given that objective and reproducible test results have well and truly settled the 'contest' - oh, unless of course you are him, posting here in disguise (which he's done several times before), LOL.


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
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    Cyril Blanc, I'm looking forward to seeing your exposition or tutorial on how to use IAC Busses reliably, effectively and efficiently with VEP, as an alternative "solution" to regular practice recommended by VSL. If you've already posted such things, would you be so kind as to provide links here. Thanks.

    Oh and by the way, other readers may be interested to note the following popup warning in the VEP Server when enabling an IAC Bus as a MIDI input for the Server:-

    • "Be aware that using external MIDI inputs within the Vienna Ensemble Pro Server is an experimental feature. Due to technical limitations originating from the nature of MIDI, the inputs may work unreliably. It is recommended to route MIDI through the Vienna Ensemble Pro plugin instead."

    It would appear that Mr Blanc is urging us to jump out of the frying pan into the fire, n'est-ce pas?

    Good luck with that, matey.


    "The US 1st Amendment does NOT allow you to yell "FIRE!" falsely in a packed cinema, nor in an online forum." ~ Dobi (60kg Cane da pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese)
  • You do not need to jump in the frying pan, my feet are fine.😀

    I have use IAC for many years (2016), that was solving the problem of VEP SERVER not using all the core of my MacPro 16 cores

    The only problem I had is you had to add a little delay to audio tracks staying in Logic.

    I wanted to post the IAC configuration but Mac OS did not migrate it from my old MBP and the tutorial I made has been lost after my server's crash (If you are really interested I can contact the persons I have send it)


    Today's solution and since quite a few years is to put VSL instrument in Logic

    @Helmholtz said:

    Cyril Blanc, I'm looking forward to seeing your exposition or tutorial on how to use IAC Busses reliably, effectively and efficiently with VEP, as an alternative "solution" to regular practice recommended by VSL. If you've already posted such things, would you be so kind as to provide links here. Thanks.


    Oh and by the way, other readers may be interested to note the following popup warning in the VEP Server when enabling an IAC Bus as a MIDI input for the Server:-



    • "Be aware that using external MIDI inputs within the Vienna Ensemble Pro Server is an experimental feature. Due to technical limitations originating from the nature of MIDI, the inputs may work unreliably. It is recommended to route MIDI through the Vienna Ensemble Pro plugin instead."


    It would appear that Mr Blanc is urging us to jump out of the frying pan into the fire, n'est-ce pas?


    Good luck with that, matey.


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • CB, glad to hear that your feet are fine but now I'm wondering how you - and indeed all users - can and should see fit to ignore VSL's cautionary popup regarding use of MIDI inputs to the VEP server.

    Are users to believe that you do actually possess an IAC "solution" that works reliably, effectively and efficiently between current versions of Logic and the VEP server, for Apple Silicon?

    Or do you have a different configuration in mind, such as not using VEP at all but using IAC in some other configuration that you use?

    Or is it perhaps some hypothetical configuration you have in mind that you think should work ok?

    Please be more specific.


    "The US 1st Amendment does NOT allow you to yell "FIRE!" falsely in a packed cinema, nor in an online forum." ~ Dobi (60kg Cane da pastore Maremmano-Abruzzese)
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    Hi Helmholtz.

    I do not use IAC and Network Midi with VEP since quite a few years.

    The last configuration using IAC was on a Macpro 12 core with a RAID 0 of 8 x SSD for the librairies.

    I used all the VSL, KT, ..... instruments IN LOGIC ; first in a MacBook Pro 2016 (??) then in a MacBook Pro 2019 (it allowed me to use MIR PRO) and since a couple month in a Macbook Pro M3 MAX to be able to have my pieces in Dolby Atmos

    @Helmholtz said:

    CB, glad to hear that your feet are fine but now I'm wondering how you - and indeed all users - can and should see fit to ignore VSL's cautionary popup regarding use of MIDI inputs to the VEP server.


    Are users to believe that you do actually possess an IAC "solution" that works reliably, effectively and efficiently between current versions of Logic and the VEP server, for Apple Silicon?


    Or do you have a different configuration in mind, such as not using VEP at all but using IAC in some other configuration that you use?


    Or is it perhaps some hypothetical configuration you have in mind that you think should work ok?


    Please be more specific.


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic