Sorry to hijack the thread for silliness.

Concerning the words "epic" used to refer to current film scoring and "Journey" used for the wide-ranging expression of the old masters...

Maybe the most "epic" and greatest "journey" one might bring up in music would be Mahler. Is there anything that takes the listener farther than his 2nd Symphony? The range of emotion and the truly "epic" scope of the entire work, which Mahler explicitly stated was an attempt at creating an entire world, is so far beyond the "epic" sound of Hollywood there is no comparison. Part of this is the extreme contrast and extreme harmonic movement within the different sections of the music as well as the contrasts between the movements. It is the opposite of the homophonic sound of a typical huge Hollywood orchestration that smears a gigantic orchestra over a three staff quickie-score that could be played on a piano and even be boring for the pianist. Try transcribing Mahler's 2nd for piano. Even Lizst would have found that difficult.

In defense of Mr. Williams - although the theme is not overwhelmingly original (although my 4-month old son seems to love being held in the air whilst it is being sung raucously), the first cue in the film proper (think it is something about Krypton) is great.

It has a slow brass fanfare (augmented gradually by strings and wind), which grows by both crescendo and instrumentation throughout to a very effective climax. I think it shows pretty masterful control and restraint. A single cue of about a minute or so that I always enjoy.

So you can't polish a dog turd, but you might just find that he swallowed a diamond ring... [[:|]]

doo-bee-doo-bee-doo.

Bee-baa-ba-naa.

A-shink-a-doo-ba-wee-skiddley-donk.

At last someone is specifically contributing to the discussion of scat. I agree completely with your last point about the skiddley-donk.

Also, I always liked that Superman cue though an attempt has been made here by Alex to mess with my mind and musicologically prejudice me against it. What is his agenda? I would really like to know. Note how he disappears for a time, in order to foment dissension (and perhaps sedition) and further mess with certain emotionally vulnerable people's minds.

William,
How can you suggest such a thing (Bee bop diddly bop)?

I'm away trying to save what i can from a near death hard drive! And write music of course.
But as you're in a mood for dissent, let me continue......
Film music hasn't just started it's slow deterioration. Indeed, when air travel was in it's infancy, a whole raft of movies about handsome uniform clad flying officers, and impossibly well mannered, breathtakingly beautiful stewardesses, were accompanied by music laced with crooning choirs, semi latin beat and brass parts to keep any semi retired trumpeter busy for a while. Scene after scene of breathless innocent romance were interlaced with continuous frames of comet aircraft, luxurious interiors and good food generously dolloped on real plates, all served with a rich sauce of 'glamorous music'. (My how air travel has changed since those days)

And the genre ran for about 5 or 6 years before the dissidents stepped in and introduced the 'devil's music into scores. (The senseless uproar from the conservative set was laughable in its desperate ferocity)
Rock and roll.
No longer the wonderful sight of a perfect woman smiling as if you were the only man in the world, we were inundated with scruffy youths, girls in mini skirts so high you'd think they'd need oxygen, and the same beat on and on. There were some great songs and themes, but Rock too made way for the most dire sound ever to smear disgrace on the music scene and in film.
Disco.
It's gone downhill from there!
And no longer the at least cleverly orchestrated semi symphonic work of the past mixed with music for young 'uns, now we're totally immersed in the endless choirs, simplistic, unimaginative, repetitive harmonic structures, etc, etc,..........

As for messing with minds, and the perceived intent on my part to prejudice you William, totally incidental i can assure you of that! [[:|]]

Still, discussion has its uses, and if a trip to the land of uncertainty provokes thought, spawns ideas, and expands horizons, who am i to stop the flow of progress?

Regards to you all,

Alex!
Arch dissident.

[H]

@hermitage59 said:

William,
Disco.
It's gone downhill from there!
Regards to you all,
Alex!
Arch dissident.
[H]

I thought Celebration by Kool & the Gang was really good.

[:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops:

I couldn't get that drunk.


[[:|]]

In the 70s I thought music could never sink lower than Disco.

I hadn't heard Rap.

Though it is one step above the unidentifiable "music" (note carefully the quotation marks) played by brain-dead morons who put 1500 watt woofers in their cars and subject everyone within a three-mile radius to the idiotic, inescapable bass gruntings, similar to the low-pitched vibrations emiited by a warthog searching for slop.

These people should be arrested immediately, and subjected to the psychological, brain-conditioning tortures specified lovingly in "Clockwork Orange."

Hello to you all,
this my first post. I'm new to composition (coming from a keyboard background, as an amateur, and having just purchased Solo Strings)

Superman: In fact, Williams just kind of Xerox an old Superman theme, that was written for a serial, if I remember well. I was surprised the very first time I heard it that old score: same pedal effect sequence and same first brass notes. May be Williams was commissioned to go from that.

Epic in movies: Elfman says somewhere Williams brought back that way of scoring. So it’s back in the 70’s, with Tower Inferno, following the use of jazz-funk oriented scoring (Shiffrin). I must admit (I’m going subjective there) epic suits those recent blockbusters well, better than an Isaac Hayes work that would shift me away from the mood. As you say, it’s sort of a trend, but that is logical. What is really new to my hears and has largely spread in a less than a decade is the extensive use of percussion. BIG ones. No Williams, no Goldsmith had this, neither the first Horner or whoever. I assume Zimmer and his Media Ventures team can be held responsible for that. Or, more exactly, directors and producers who ask him to repeat a successful receipt.

But I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of room for non epic scores and this room is well filled nowadays. Listen to the beautifully crafted The Pledge score, from Zimmer and Badelt. No French horns, no vibrato strings, just a guitar (Peirera), some percussions, ONE voice, a few synth pads. Zimmer’s Thin Red line looks toward French Impressionists. Raimi’s A Simple Plan, Elfman’s score, is not brassy at all. Debney in Bourne Identity is doing something very interesting: treated drums and dry brass. Thomas Newman is rarely going Epic, though scoring for the majors (but ok, he’s composing the same score over and over, with the same pizzicatos, same harmonics…) Action packed movies are pretty BIG these days, so they want to sound BIIIIG as well. Same range of emotions, I presume. Furthermore, we should never forget that they most of times have 3 month or so to complete a score (ok, some of the cues are composed from the “shadow men”, Zimmer being one the first to bring their contribution into light, but Zimmer is exceptional in many ways).

Oops, that’s a first and long post… I won’t have much more than that to say, anyway [:O]ops:

litti

That's a good observation that the John Williams Superman is like the old TV show theme, which was very good AND quite similar. Williams has a very ABSORBENT ear.

Who wrote that original theme?

However, I disagree on the percussion. Jerry Goldsmith is the one who started all this heavy, big, Taiko-like percussion though nobody ever seems to recognize him for it. In "Wind and the Lion" he used a huge drum part that was very effective and spectacular, combined with an epic-style score. Ever since, that stylistic innovation has been transmitted and copied.

James Horner is the most unoriginal and plagiaristic composer in the history of Hollywood, so whether or not he used it is of no consequence.

@William said:

That's a good observation that the John Williams Superman is like the old TV show theme, which was very good AND quite similar. Williams has a very ABSORBENT ear.

Who wrote that original theme?

Richard Strauss.... [:D]

DG

William,

You must be right. I'm already showing my limits [8-)]
Anyway, the trend about taiko drums is beginning to be really annoying. I've been found of it but it's already so oversused...

About being plagiaristic, what about Shore or Newton Howard ? Am not sure, but they all sound the same for me. Even Debney...

I remember of a David Newman (on of Alfred, brother of Thomas, cousin of Randy !) saying how easy you get pigeonholed by the film industry. He'ld like to score something else than comedy, but it's so hard to convince producers/directors he can do a lot different than Scoobidoo...

Williams : in Star Wars' The phantom menace, the last theme is a total plagia of P. Glass ! But I could almost hear Lucas saying "Oh, I'ld it to sound prettry much like this Powaqqatsi, or is it Koyaanisqatsi ?" [:D]

PS Has anyone got any idea where I could get those old Korngold, Rocza, Steiner recordings... ? Thanx ?

Litti

Those are good points.

I agree completely about the overall uniform, undistinguished sound and we've discussed that a lot here. And I haven't heard that John Williams you mention, but it would not surprise me given his repeated side excursions into Stravinksi, Tchaikovsky, Strauss, etc. But the difference with Williams is he is CAPABLE of some originality. Unlike a lot of others! There are a lot of Korngold recordings now, many of them on the Marco Polo or Varese Sarabande label. Also the DVD of Robin Hood has a music track only feature. Captain Blood and Sea Hawk are coming out on DVD. Steiner and Rosza are also available on various CDs, for example in the Charles Gerhardt series of recordings for LP that has been reissued. I have a lot of LPs of Rosza, whose best scores are Ben Hur, El Cid, Quo Vadis, Lost Weekend and the Thief of Bagdad. The thing that is good about the Gerhardt series is it puts together suites from the most significant scores of each composer, and you can then go and find complete recordings of the ones you like based on those excerpts.

@William said:

I have a lot of LPs of Rosza, whose best scores are Ben Hur, El Cid, Quo Vadis, Lost Weekend and the Thief of Bagdad.

Also, do not forget The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes by Rosza - a very effective score.

Or "The Power" - in which he used a cimbalo not for its folksy effect but for its crazy sound in an intense psychological story.

[/quote]Korngold, Rocza, Steiner recordings... ?

@Another User said:

Litti, besides Varèse Sarabande and Marco Polo, also check out FSM (www.filmscoremonthly.com), and ScreenArchivesEntertainment for various remastered releases of original scores (archival releases).

thanx a lot ! [:)]

@William said:

In the 70s I thought music could never sink lower than Disco.

I hadn't heard Rap.

William, I think you may have confused "rap" with pop music disguised as rap. Don't get me wrong, I think the crap on MTV is the some of most mindless cliched music in history. However, one has to admit that rap is just as legitimate a genre as any other. Rap isn't what "lil' bow bow" (or any of the numerous "lil's") "sings", just like punk isn't what avril lavigne "sings". It's all shitty pop music.

P.S. Sorry if you're not young enough to understand these references, but I'm not old enough to make a comparison of acts from 10-30 years ago.

P.P.S. I don't mean to insult you by suggesting you're old, just I would think that most people on this forum are a bit older than I am--18.

Not sure about this Danimal.

Are you saying Snoop Doggy dog, and Eminem, have a place in musical history? Even they're evolving into, well, i'll be honest, i don't know what.

And i mean no disrespect Danimal, but there is a distinct difference between rap, and bad pop, and even old farts like us understand at least some of that, and still find Rap oppressive, non musical, and (IMO) in a lot of instances, complete rubbish.

Right.
Back to writing historical artifacts, and studying that little known Beethoven classic, 'The Hammer and the Dining Table',
which translates in today's modern world as.......
'slam that muvver down.'

Now Ludwig was cool, man.

Regards,

Snoop Diddly Gangsta Wobble Cigar Cognac Alex
(Artist formerly known as Classical A.)
[H]

@DanimalSnacks said:

However, one has to admit that rap is just as legitimate a genre as any other. Rap isn't what "lil' bow bow" (or any of the numerous "lil's") "sings", just like punk isn't what avril lavigne "sings". It's all shitty pop music.

P.S. Sorry if you're not young enough to understand these references, but I'm not old enough to make a comparison of acts from 10-30 years ago.

Yes - Rap is definitely a genre. (exhales a great deal of breath).

As to the rest of it - I'll get my 22 year old daughter to translate it all when she gets in.

[8-)]

@Another User said:

What is really new to my hears and has largely spread in a less than a decade is the extensive use of percussion. BIG ones. No Williams, no Goldsmith had this, neither the first Horner or whoever. I assume Zimmer and his Media Ventures team can be held responsible for that. Or, more exactly, directors and producers who ask him to repeat a successful receipt.

Everything is bland in Hollywood. The films are just flashy 'attacks on the senses' and the music is mere wallpaper. Lots of techno beats and loops and percussion. Most of it isn't very interesting.
While I can appreciate Mr. Zimmer's workmethods (i.e. working with a team which is essentially making library music specifically for each new assignment)... I find a lot of his music (HIS? His TEAMS' music) quite boring.

Now, if you want interesting percussion you really have to get back to the 60s. Tv shows like Man From UNCLE and The Twilight Zone started with unconventional scoring approaches.
The late Jerry Goldsmith is mentioned for his big percussion attack in The Wind and the Lion, but he had some great, strange, eerie, beautiful and unconventional percussion in Planet of The Apes. Now those were the years of experimental scores.

Since the synthesized drones from 1985 onwards, tv and film music is largely spoiled by MIDI and popmusic.