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Hi,
I would like to experiment with 2nd Violins moved to the right. I remember Ben described how to do, but for some reason I can't find that thread.
Can someone point me to the procedure? I've put in this post both "second violins" and "2nd violins", so it should be easy to get back to it later.
Paolo
I did my tests, and I admit it's an impressive acoustic effect.
Room mics do contain position information, but very much blended with the ambience, much more diffuse and less directional.
Add the mid, or even close mics, and you have the image move towards the spot/medium mics.
Paolo
It's not the phase you need to switch, but you can swap L/R in the power pan of the tree/room mics to complete the effect. I've done this both for second violins and to move Synchron pianos around, with much success.
It's not the phase you need to switch, but you can swap L/R in the power pan of the tree/room mics to complete the effect.
Do you mean that I should move the L icon all to the right, and the R icon all to the left? So, it would not be inverting the phase, but moving the channel to the opposite side.
Paolo
Paolo, Richhickey's method of swapping L-R using Power Pan is very good. The Power Pan control itself does nothing in terms of signal-inversion (or so-called "phase-inversion"); I'm not sure why you're concerned about that.
The psychoacoustical realism achieved by the method comes largely from the direct-path L-R timing difference being reversed. That timing difference is one of the key factors that let our ears sense azimuth (known as the "precedence" effect).
Just wondering: isn't reversing the L and R channels the same as inverting the phase? The Power Pan would allow intermediate steps, but if completely wide, wouldn't it be the same?
Paolo
Dear Paolo
No, it is not the same. "Ch-Swap" means that the right channel is played in the left channel and vice versa. Practically speaking: If something sounds first on the left (e.g. the 2nd violin), then it sounds after the "SWAP-Channel-Efect" from the right.
Inverting Phase means that if the oscillation of a tone starts first in the positive direction (imagine a sine wave), it will start in the negative direction after pressing the "Phase Invert Switch".
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If you want a real redistribution of the instruments from left to right, sometimes it also helps if you select "unprocessed" (for the "Synchronized" instruments) or "without synchron stage" (default) for the synchron libraries. You actually have to experiment a bit.
For mixing reasons, a distribution of 1 viol 1 left, viol 2 right, viola and cello half left/half right and bass in the middle is the better solution than the classic setup. It offers a nicer stereo image, is better in terms of bass for many (small) speaker systems and a soloist is hardly covered by the bass in the middle. Personally, I am a big fan of the above mentioned setup. Moreover, this setup is sometimes used in reality. In addition, we are allowed to mix our orchestra the way we want, if no client wants it differently, because he pays.
All the best
Beat
Beat, thank you very much for the explanations, clear and detailed as usual.
I know the difference between phase inversion and channel swapping, yet here I am: in that moment they were overlapping concepts, with one calling for the other. I was probably caught by a Mid/Side loop…
I too greatly prefer the configuration of 2nd Violins to the right. The channels are more balanced, and basses are more to the center. I've been very happy to discover that it is easy to achieve this configuration even with multi-mic orchestras recorded in the 20th-Century Cinema configuration. I'm happy to see that the old setup is more and more adopted by live orchestras.
Paolo
The Violas, now.
They have to be shifted 30° on the left. What about the room mics? Should I move the R channel a bit to the left, or use the Balance slider to make the L channel stronger than the R?
The first solution would make the stereo field a bit narrower. I've no idea if this also happens when using the Balance control, or the stereo field remains the same, only moved on the same side.
Paolo
I could finally devoted some time to experimenting. To move the Second Violins to the right here is what works for me:
- Move the Close and Mid mics completely to the right. Don't change the width of the Mid mics.
- Invert the L and R channels of the Room mics. Don't change their width.
- Move the Balance slider of the Room mics to the right, matching the Close and Mid mics.
Paolo
[Edit] Try it and see, Paolo. Not only are the Close mics almost summed to mono, but also their residual room ambience is so 'polite' and non-assertive that it doesn't seem to interfere at all with L-R-swapped Mains, nor with the HRTF panning and artificial reverb I sometimes add to Mid. But let your ears tell you what's what, when deciding which mics you need to L-R-swap.
