@evang42 said:

WOW.  mind absolutely BLOWN.  Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.  This has long plagued me too!!  But I had no idea until 20mins ago that this was an actual bug effecting only DP users.  I incorrectly thought this was just the very nature of latency and buffer settings etc and all DAWs experienced this.  Just confirmed with Logic and Cubase using friends that those DAWs will compensate for higher buffers when live recording MIDI.  DP needs to fix this RIGHT AWAY.  I'm going to ping the hell out of this to the dev team.  Thanks again for bringing to my attention!

No no, theres a very clear distinction that needs to be made here.  I'm not saying other daws found a way to eliminate the buffer latency of - the interval between the time a key/pad is pressed to the time you hear the sound - that would basically be impossible.  What Im saying is other DAWs have a way to place the actual MIDI notes that you play in real time down in the midi track at the EXACT time you physically touch the keyboard, regardless of buffer.  Pretend your speakers are muted for a sec, this whole thing has nothing to do with actual sound.  Set up a metronome on your iphone or something.  Now, If you record arm a track in Logic or Cubase, play a midi passage to the click at a buffer of 64, the resulting recorded midi will be in time to the same extent that if you then change your buffer to 2048, record arm the track and play to the same click.  That is currently NOT the case w DP.  DP's buffer settings are having a negative delay/impact on where the actual midi notes get put while recording and it gets worse the higher the buffer goes.

Got it. What you describe is what I always assumed. Yeah, I guess other DAWs would need to have implemented time-travel to eliminate live buffer latency!  

So higher buffers causing "negative-delay" in DP is the operative here. That is new info for me. By keeping my buffers at 512 I guess I've never noticed the discrepancy - mainly, probably because I'm not much of a player. At 512 that negative-lag is the least of my problems.  

But is this a VEP issue, evang42? Or do all VI exhibit this in DP? 

This problem exists in DP with any VI. For example, we tested it with a basic MoTU VI, in the actual sequence on the host computer (no VEPro, Bidule, etc.), and it is still a problem. Take the VI out, and record into a MIDI track that's not connected to anything, and MIDI is recorded correctly, regardless of buffer setting. By the way, I can set Pro Tools up with the same parameters and it does not exhibit this problem. All modern DAWs compute where to record the MIDI note regardless of buffer size, latency, etc..

Finally, this problem does not exist with AMD PCs or M1 Macs. You can record MIDI with a VI and a 1048 buffer on a M1 MacBook Pro and the MIDI notes will be recorded exactly as you played them. Matt Batson and I did a lot of testing on this, and the engineers confirmed it.

@dmansfield said:

This problem exists in DP with any VI. For example, we tested it with a basic MoTU VI, in the actual sequence on the host computer (no VEPro, Bidule, etc.), and it is still a problem. Take the VI out, and record into a MIDI track that's not connected to anything, and MIDI is recorded correctly, regardless of buffer setting. By the way, I can set Pro Tools up with the same parameters and it does not exhibit this problem. All modern DAWs compute where to record the MIDI note regardless of buffer size, latency, etc..

Finally, this problem does not exist with AMD PCs or M1 Macs. You can record MIDI with a VI and a 1048 buffer on a M1 MacBook Pro and the MIDI notes will be recorded exactly as you played them. Matt Batson and I did a lot of testing on this, and the engineers confirmed it.

...and now iLok is done... hopefully beside debugging it (just last little inconsistencies, the overall job was quite brilliant, well done VSL) a VEP7 universal macOS will be released... 

From your mouth to God's ear 😉

@fatis12_24918 said:

...and now iLok is done... hopefully beside debugging it (just last little inconsistencies, the overall job was quite brilliant, well done VSL) a VEP7 universal macOS will be released...

I'm assuming VEP7 would stay on Rosetta and VEP8 would be the software to make native. Seems like a heck of a lot of work to have to do it fro VEP7 when VEP8 is probably on the horizon. It would also be a little nudge to encourage an upgrade :-)

@santamorphic said:

I'm assuming VEP7 would stay on Rosetta and VEP8 would be the software to make native. Seems like a heck of a lot of work to have to do it fro VEP7 when VEP8 is probably on the horizon. It would also be a little nudge to encourage an upgrade :-)

...along these lines, I'm reading that MacOS 12.3 seems to have fixed a lot of plugins that weren't working in Monterey. I'm holding back updating for a couple of reasons, but I'm curious if, by some miracle, the update makes the MAS plugin usable on M1 Macs.

@Dan Wool said:

...along these lines, I'm reading that MacOS 12.3 seems to have fixed a lot of plugins that weren't working in Monterey. I'm holding back updating for a couple of reasons, but I'm curious if, by some miracle, the update makes the MAS plugin usable on M1 Macs.

It does not. Basically unless you're running Cubase or Bitwig, VSTs don't run in Rosetta. Bitwig sandboxes the VSTs so they run in Rosetta in Bitwig native. As Far as MAS is concerned MOTU would have to implement this themselves and I would bet they decided that the 8-12 companies that make MAS plug ins would be coming to native soon enough. 

  So yeah, I miss the MAS VEP plug in, and hope that Vienna get going on this soon enough. 

To be clear, DP11 itself is fully AS native, but as you point out VEP MAS won't work in Rosetta.  I actually spoke to someone at MOTU about this and they said that Rosetta could only translate AU plugins (and not MAS) so unfortunately it's up to VSL to go AS native and deliver a MAS version to get this working again and it seems there's nothing more MOTU can do.  

@evang42 said:

I also use DP11 and am a beta tester and can report issues directly to the MOTU devs. What are the steps/circumstances that cause the midi timing bug w DP11/VEP you’ve found on intel???? This needs to be fixed asap regardless of AS transition.

With higher buffer settings (e.g. 1048), if you are routing a MIDI track to a VI (any VI, even a MoTU VI), MIDI records about 60 ms late. Also "Fine-tune Audio I/O Timing" does not work on these machines. The only workaround is nudging MIDI back into place after recording. I've been working extensively with Matt Batson in tech support, and the engineering team has been made aware of the bug. They have reproduced it on 2 different Intel machines, and confirmed that it does not happen on their AMD PC or their M1 Mac Mini. I don't know that it is a priority for them though.

There is an extensive thread about this on MoTUNation, "MIDI recording late", where I document what's going on in detail (though you may have to wade through some off-topic or uninformed posts to see it). If you have access to the engineering team and can help nudge them toward supporting the older Intel machines, that would be great!

Hi dmansfield!  I found an answer/fix for you on this!  In DP's preferences, go to midi options and UN-check the box called "Sync Recorded Midi to Patch Thru".  This SHOULD totally fix your issue (on ANY machine, apple silicon, intel, pc etc).  It's a setting that tells DP to place midi either 1) exactly where you PLAYED/intended it (un-checked) OR 2) where you would normally HEAR that midi (which of course is dependent on buffer size/latency).

@evang42 said:

To be clear, DP11 itself is fully AS native, but as you point out VEP MAS won't work in Rosetta.  I actually spoke to someone at MOTU about this and they said that Rosetta could only translate AU plugins (and not MAS) so unfortunately it's up to VSL to go AS native and deliver a MAS version to get this working again and it seems there's nothing more MOTU can do.  

Hello, I am just changing my Mac to M1 Mac.

I read the thread but please explain me, what is not compatible now? I am using VEP7 on a PC connected to my DAW Mac. Will I be able to use my templates on LOGIC with AU3 and AU2 VEP7 plugin? 

@Adia said:

Hello, I am just changing my Mac to M1 Mac.

I read the thread but please explain me, what is not compatible now? I am using VEP7 on a PC connected to my DAW Mac. Will I be able to use my templates on LOGIC with AU3 and AU2 VEP7 plugin? 

Thank you for saying this.. Does Rosetta slow down the VEP7 plugin or it does not matter at all? ( I mean not the slow down like 3% but like 20%)? 

Will I be able to run the VEP Server on the M1?

VEP running in Rosetta seems a bit faster on my M1 Max than it did on my MacPro. And, yes. The server runs on an M1.

The performance here is certainly better than it's ever performed, I credit the system on chip architecture.
But, trying to use BFD3 in it brought the system to its knees, haven't seen anything like it since I had a drastically underspec computer early this century.