Mike,
As a player, i worked for many years to remove the natural harshness from tone so easy to fall into when playing at a greater volume. Paticularly on Clarinet and Oboe, the player must work hard to keep the tone as 'pure' as possible. It's no sinecure, and many many times, even the most experience of players sits 'on the edge' in big orchestrations loudly written, working to keep that liquid tone on clarinet, and stop the 'duck calls' on Oboe.
A P dynamic would be too soft to manipulate well (as we try to do with all samples), and it's my view that Mp-Mf represents the best level at which to record a sample and keep the 'best' of tone production for most instruments. Again as a player, I enjoyed most the lower and upper ranges of my instrument, and worked hard to produce that soft liquid sound written for, more than any other articulation or dynamic level, by the world's best composers.
(Consider Shostakovich's Festive Overture, a favourite among many W/W players, written to deliberately exploit that liquid tone.)
So, although it sounds pretty cool to have a complete dynamic range, in reality i understand the decision, because the level VSL have recorded at, represents the best of the instruments, and an increase or decrease in dynamic doesn't bring a change in tone that may be detrimental to the end result. I do not imply that the professionals playing for these samples aren't capable of playing with good tone at whatever dynamic level, merely, with the constant production of sounds, there will no doubt be higher priorities, e.g. new instrument recordings.

Hope this makes sense.
Regards,
Alex.

Alex-
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense at all. First, I find it hard to believe that professional players in Vienna (who are some of the finest players in the world) could not create an outstanding ensemble tone and intonation at piano and forte dynamics. Secondly, if you applied this philosophy to all instrument samples, you could not have a forte trumpet ensemble, or piano trombones in high register, or any number of things that are difficult (but very possible) to play.

Also, keep in mind that these are the ONLY performance legato samples with just one dynamic, rendering them incapable of playing different dynamics, as far as I can tell. This is essential, in my opinion to creating realistic mockups. I was asking Michi for a workaround or something achieve this, but have not recieved a response yet.
-mvanbebber

Mike,
Since the last discussion about which Oboe is used more, i did some thinking, and tried to remember what my colleagues used in years past.
In the 4 professional orchestras i worked in, and forgive me as i'm trying to remember, i think 5 of the players owned both and the other three used 1 Viennese, and 2 French. The option of both instruments was used for different styles of music. Again, as i remember, the french oboe featured in Western European Classical, and Romantic music more often than not, although Beethoven was one composer who 'required' in their opinion the use of Viennese oboe.
Russian, and Eastern European Classical music sounded more authentic with viennese oboe, given the 'folk' origins of much of the music.
As a conductor of a theatre orchestra, my two oboists used one each, and i often swapped them between the first and second parts according to the sound requirement of the style of music. (The king and I sounds much clearer with a viennese oboe! [H] )

I know the general impression is a predominance of French oboe in music today, and that's partly true, although i suspect it's more about general availability of instrument than choice of sound, but the impression of Viennesse oboe being a rare, or out of date instrument, isn't true. I have met the two principal obists from the Russian Phil, and they both use both. (again as i remember.)
I also remember the good natured discussions from the past between W/W players extolling the virtues of one or the other!
If you're writing film music of today, i would suggest, given the origins of that music, based to a large extent on the music of eastern Europe, Scandinavia and Russia, that samples of Viennesse oboe would be an assett, and not something to consider in some way, second best.

Regards,

Alex.

It does seem odd that only one velocity is recorded for legato, but other multiple for other articulations. If its needed for lets say sustained notes, why not for legato?

Mike,
I'm not saying for one second that the players aren't capable of producing excellent samples at any level. (I did write that previously)
But consider the options. If VSL were to record every nuance of every instrument for a complete range of pitch, dynamic, and tone, they'd still be recording the violins for the first edition, and the sample count would be, well, uncountable.
Can you get better sounds elsewhere? After several discussions about other sample bases (including a rather obvious and clumsy incursion by EW), can you honestly say they produce the quality and variety of sound you require? Can you get a W/W package with everything in it, recorded to the same quality from anywhere else?
I did write (in case you missed it) a complete dynamic range would be pretty cool, but a complete range of pitch with every nuance, timbre and variation of tone would also be cool. The problem is we'd all be retired or long gone before a complete library would be available.

If you require a complete range of everything to complete your work, with every tone recorded at every dynamic level, then maybe VSL W/W won't do it for you.
Is there a package from another company that fits your requirements?
I also wrote that it's possible VSL are working hard to produce samples for other instruments. How many do you want available? Are you willing to wait until every pitch, tone nuance, etc. is recorded for one instrument, before they move to the next?
And how long would that take?

I wrote of the tonal challenges i faced as a player, and tried to explain what is reality in a playing situation. If that gives you more understanding or not, is up to you.
I also understand VSL are a business who make decisions based on a balance between exceptional quality, representation of sound produced on an instrument, and priority of production of instrument, section and ensemble.
I remember from what you've written more than once, of your exacting and high standards of expectation, and i wonder which company would ultimately meet your needs. If you find one, let me know.

Regards,

Alex.

Alex-
Wow, you are getting all worked up and straying from the point completely! Please stick to the point - I'm not asking for EVERY POSSIBLE NUANCE OF EVERY INSTRUMENT - I'm just asking for more than one dynamic for performance legatos. Don't you think it might be nice to have SOME control over dynamics - not COMPLETE AND UTTER CONTROL OF EVERY PARAMETER POSSIBLE, as you say in your post above. Please don't take my request for (1) more dynamic level (which would total 2, like most other perf_leg. samples) to mean that I want an infinite number of samples for all instruments.

@Christian Marcussen said:

It does seem odd that only one velocity is recorded for legato, but other multiple for other articulations. If its needed for lets say sustained notes, why not for legato?

I agree completely, it is odd and is certainly an exception in VSL. How does one create different dynamics with just one dynamic level? Am I going crazy, or is it kind of strange that they would only have one dynamic? I just can't figure it out, this is completely unique for VSL, and I am just asking why they did it, and for a workaround to create dynamic contrast using performance legatos.

By the way, I have not yet purchased this library - I am just asking if I will be able to create dynamic changes in perf_leg with the woodwind ensembles before I buy it. If the answer is "no," then why would I buy the library? Even if I have to do a complicated workaround I would be willing to do it, but to claim that it is not necessary or even logical to have 2 dynamic levels is not acceptable to me.

-mvanbebber

@Christian Marcussen said:

It does seem odd that only one velocity is recorded for legato, but other multiple for other articulations. If its needed for lets say sustained notes, why not for legato?

I agree completely, it is odd and is certainly an exception in VSL. How does one create different dynamics with just one dynamic level? Am I going crazy, or is it kind of strange that they would only have one dynamic? I just can't figure it out, this is completely unique for VSL, and I am just asking why they did it, and for a workaround to create dynamic contrast using performance legatos.

By the way, I have not yet purchased this library - I am just asking if I will be able to create dynamic changes in perf_leg with the woodwind ensembles before I buy it. If the answer is "no," then why would I buy the library? Even if I have to do a complicated workaround I would be willing to do it, but to claim that it is not necessary or even logical to have 2 dynamic levels is not acceptable to me.

-mvanbebber

I doubt whether anyone could answer your question properly unless they have the library. It may well be that the ensembles sound virtually the same playing quietly as loudly; I don't know. However, I do sometimes use the "wrong" dynamic legato instrument (with the volume turned up or down) because I prefer the sound.

DG

Mvanbebber-
No, you are not going crazy, this is quite obviously a necessity, not an option. I have wondered this myself, but just avoided buying this library because I saw that there was only one dynamic level of legato.

I guess you could adjust the dynamics by using the volume slider, but that sounds very artificial in all other situations, and is certainly not ideal. It is very strange indeed that Michi seems to imply that it is not necessary to have more than one dynamic level. [*-)] Let me know what you find out, because I am interested to hear the response from VSL.

@DG said:

I doubt whether anyone could answer your question properly unless they have the library. It may well be that the ensembles sound virtually the same playing quietly as loudly; I don't know. However, I do sometimes use the "wrong" dynamic legato instrument (with the volume turned up or down) because I prefer the sound.

DG

That is a good point, but I use the VSL samples with Sibelius 4 notation program, which uses velocity to create dynamic level changes. To create dynamic changes to the same sample with the volume slider sounds very artificial, not to mention being very difficult to do in a notation program (you have to create hundreds of continuous controller midi messages.)

What I do now is to create crossfaded perf_legato samples based on velocity (just like Jay Bacal uses with mod wheel control), and I would obviously not be able to do this with the woodwind ensembles. If there was some type of workaround to fix this, I would certainly love to purchase the library.

I would use perf_legato almost exclusively, and if I couldn't change the dynamics, it would basically be useless to me (as you can imagine.)
thanks,
-mvanbebber

I decided there is no need for more than 1 dynamics for the performance legati, because I think the recorded dynamic covers the need of unisono woodwind performances very well.

OK, the pp timbre is missing. But you usually won't write for three unsisono flutes (oboes, clarinettes, bassoons) if you need a pp?

best
Herb

@herb said:

I decided there is no need for more than 1 dynamics for the performance legati, because I think the recorded dynamic covers the need of unisono woodwind performances very well.

OK, the pp timbre is missing. But you usually won't write for three unsisono flutes (oboes, clarinettes, bassoons) if you need a pp?

best
Herb

Herb-
If you are implying that I will only be happy with ALL dynamic levels, you clearly do not understand my question. Even if that were the case, the library would not only be missing the pp, but also the p, and the mf, and the f and ff.

I guess no one (including VSL) will answer my question about how to create different dynamics using the perf_leg, which makes me think it is not possible. I will have to look at other libraries, which is a shame. [:(]

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not angry, just truly confused at all this - maybe my repeated questions are not clear enough... Oh well.
-mvanbebber

Mike,
I'm a bit confused here. You've mentioned hundreds of controller messages to create an effective dynamic with one sample.
In the Sibelius thread i recently posted, there's a description of using Sibelius with samples. It's simplistic but i'm using a laptop (a), my knowledge of programming is limited (b).
I'm assuming with the legato sample (lets say a single sample) that you're using the dynamic plugin (Cres/Dim). There's a workaround for this, and maybe it will make life easier. It depends if you're looking for a 'finished' score for presentation to a conductor, or a 'working' score with everything on it, for production of a finished product.
For the working score, use live playback, and when you want a note of any reasonable length, split and tie it together. e.g. Instead of a semibreve, put in semiquavers. Tie them together. In live playback go to menu Transform live playback. On the first note, designate your start dynamic, then the end dynamic for the last note. Highlight the bar (Blue Box.) select Cres/Dim in Tranform Live playback and click ok. The range of velocity increase will be incremental from the first to the last, and in live playback you can adjust each note individually, so whether you leave the straight lne, or introduce a curved Cres/Dim it's up to you.
I'm using a laptop here in Moscow, and with basic samples, one velocity, this is a useful method for getting a live playback as opposed to the mechanical one.
Regards,

Alex.

I didn't know that there are other libraries out there, which offers true legato samples for woodwind ensemble in multiple dynamics?

However, I think that dynamic timbre changes for woodwind ensembles legato playing are pretty small (in real world instrumentations).
For me the perf-legatos works very well in piano and forte.

A tip: I like to stack a soloinstrument with the ensembles.
For example
solo flute forte legato + flute ensemble legato = forte flute ensemble
solo flute piano legato + flute ensemble legato = piano flute ensemble

And don't worry, you won't detect the difference between three or four players.

best
Herb

@herb said:

I didn't know that there are other libraries out there, which offers true legato samples for woodwind ensemble in multiple dynamics?

However, I think that dynamic timbre changes for woodwind ensembles legato playing are pretty small (in real world instrumentations).
For me the perf-legatos works very well in piano and forte.

A tip: I like to stack a soloinstrument with the ensembles.
For example
solo flute forte legato + flute ensemble legato = forte flute ensemble
solo flute piano legato + flute ensemble legato = piano flute ensemble

And don't worry, you won't detect the difference between three or four players.

best
Herb

Herb-
These are great answers, thank you! You are right, there are no libraries that compare to VSL, which is why I didn't want to look for them. Your point about timral changes being minute is also a good point. Your tip about the stacking instruments is exactly what I was looking for- thank you!

One last question: Is there any way to crossfade stacked instruments via velocity layers?
thanks,
mvanbebber

@hermitage59 said:

Mike,
I'm a bit confused here. You've mentioned hundreds of controller messages to create an effective dynamic with one sample.
In the Sibelius thread i recently posted, there's a description of using Sibelius with samples. It's simplistic but i'm using a laptop (a), my knowledge of programming is limited (b).
I'm assuming with the legato sample (lets say a single sample) that you're using the dynamic plugin (Cres/Dim). There's a workaround for this, and maybe it will make life easier. It depends if you're looking for a 'finished' score for presentation to a conductor, or a 'working' score with everything on it, for production of a finished product.
For the working score, use live playback, and when you want a note of any reasonable length, split and tie it together. e.g. Instead of a semibreve, put in semiquavers. Tie them together. In live playback go to menu Transform live playback. On the first note, designate your start dynamic, then the end dynamic for the last note. Highlight the bar (Blue Box.) select Cres/Dim in Tranform Live playback and click ok. The range of velocity increase will be incremental from the first to the last, and in live playback you can adjust each note individually, so whether you leave the straight lne, or introduce a curved Cres/Dim it's up to you.
I'm using a laptop here in Moscow, and with basic samples, one velocity, this is a useful method for getting a live playback as opposed to the mechanical one.
Regards,

Alex.

Alex-

Thanks so much for those useful tips, I will try them now. Just to be clear, are you saying that you DO have dynamic control over just one perf_leg sample using Sibelius? If you playback a measure with piano marked in the score and then forte, you will hear a difference between the two in the same perf_legato sample? If so, then there is no problem, and my problems are solved.

thanks again,
mvanbebber

Mike,
I did assume you were trying to graduate a velocity curve, so the advice i gave was for that.
To go from Piano to Forte is even easier. Remembering that markings are ignored in LIVE PLAYBACK, you'll see above each note a blue bar (for the blue voices, green bar for the green etc.) representing velocity. Here's a example of my procedure (one of them).
I don't know how competent a keyboardist you are, so i'll assume on the side of competent.
Turn on Live Playback (The button with the lightning symbol). Record your phrase. Above each note will appear a blue vertical bar. This represents velocity. The whole bar (pale grey) is quite naturally 100%. The blue section represents the velocity of the note you have recorded. (hit it hard and it will be almost all blue, hit it soft, and there will be more grey. Easy)
At any time (while stopped) you can simply click on the bar in any place, and the note will be set to the new velocity.

Now, i said that markings were ignored in Live Playback, and that remains true. But if you record without live playback, you can still activate it.
So, you've entered your phrase, and now you wish to adjust the velocity. You've heard that your one sample HASN'T changed dynamic, despite the markings. Don't panic.
Turn on live playback (the button with the lightning symbol) Highlight your chosen phrase (Blue Box) and go to Transform Live Playback in the dropdown Play menu.
It will ask you if you wish to 'set a velocity' for each note. Use the default (I think it's 64) or set your own, then press ok. Above your phrase appears a vertical velocity box for each note, and you are at part one again.
If you wish to revert to non Live playback after, ensure you save!
This is a quick workaround develped from the frustration of using the Cres/Dim plugin, IMHO the worst part of Sibelius. (Should be integrated)

It's easy to do, and you have an advantage with VSL samples, as i'm coping with Miroslav on my little laptop while studying here.
Note, it's worth going to the thread i started in Composition, and see if the setup is useable. I don't know how you've got Sibelius wired into a sequencer, so if you turn off Live playback and your sample returns to a single velocity level, then turn live playback on on again, (and of course you saved it earlier), and record into sequencer making any neccessary audio adjustments. If you then wish to 'tidy up' the score for printing, you've got your audio recorded, and after turning off Live playback ,and any engraving adjustments, you've also got a printable score. Winner both ways.
Also note i use two scores. first the working score (playback adjustments), then adjustments to end with a printable score. I used to do it the other way round, and it took a lot longer.

Regards,

Alex.
I haven't tried to record in Sibelius with the audio track feature, so i don't know if it will work. Perhaps something to try in the future.