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    @Another User said:

    Perhaps if VSL had provided two parallel sets of IR's, one for the dry signal and one for the wet signal (rather then just removing the Dry from the IR's) [...]

    Like pointed out before: This could be done in simple stereo convolution reverbs*), but not in case of MIR, where we mix and match more than 100 individual IRs for a single stereo source. Severe phasing issues and ugly colouring would be the result.

    You know the proverb: "You can't have your cake and eat it." 😉

    *) ... where it still sounds bad more often than not


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • I'm aware of Mirx Mode, but not the character profile by that name when I'm not even using Mirx Mode.  What is that doing?

    I was not meaning to infer that we should bypass MirPro and do things the manual way, there is no point in purchasing MirPro if that is case obviously...Still trying to get confirmation that I understand what MirPro is doing to the dry signal?  It does sound like, however, I will probably want to think about using EQ and other plugins pre and post MIRPRo in order ot handle z-plane oriented spatiality which MIR Pro is currently NOT handling on the dry signal, mainly proximity effect.

    My hypothetical point about parallel IR's, is not what you were understanding from my words I don't think, but we don't need to cover that I was just fantacizing out loud and it has distracted you from my core questions.  


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    @Another User said:

    It does sound like, however, I will probably want to think about using EQ and other plugins pre and post MIRPRo in order ot handle z-plane oriented spatiality which MIR Pro is currently NOT handling on the dry signal, mainly proximity effect.

    If it sounds right for you, then there's nothing wrong about that! 😊 I use track- and bus-based processing in MIR centered mixes as much as I do in "conventional" ones.


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Another User said:

    Still trying to get confirmation that I understand what MirPro is doing to the dry signal? 
     

    Let me try to summarize and if you can just confirm accuracy mainly regarding the dry signal...

    1. The original dry signal that came into MIR is never passed through in any fashion.  MIR blocks it and replaces it with the "MIR-positioned dry" signal.
    2. The wet signal has had the direct instrument sound to the main mics specfically cut out.  But otherwise it has all reflections happening in the room, early and late..as encoded in the IR's, but with the direct sound from the instruments missing.
    3. MIRPro modifies the incoming signal, which is assumed to be a center panned signal; and effects the signal to provide spatial information, the result is the MIR-positioned dry signal
    4. The wet/dry slider can be used to adjust the balance between the MIR-positioned dry signal and the wet signal, described above.
    5. The MIR-positioned dry signal has been time aligned with the wet signal to avoid any phasing problems that are typical in real world recording situations.
    6. The dry signal is regarded like a close spot mike, but after a mixing engineer has applied a few more typical adjustments to that close mic dry signal, resulting in a stereo MIR-positioned dry signal.  The following options are available for the dry signal:
    7. The directivity filter option will determine whether the direction of the player icon will have any bearing on the dry sound.  If checked, then it will be considered like the mic is planted to the floor, and directivity profile will be used to effect various aspects of the sound such as level, EQ, etc..based on directivity profile.  If unchecked, then the direction the player is facing has no bearing on the dry sound, only to the wet sound.
    8. Distance depedent scaling, if checked, will take into consideration the distance from the player to the main mic and adjust the LEVEL accordingly in the dry signal.
    9. Air Absorption, if checked, will roll off HF from the dry signal, based on distance from the player to the main mic.
    10. Proximity effect is not adjusted automatically by icon placement on the stage, however there is a character profile called "Distance" that can be used to specifically remove proximity warmth in order to place an instrument futher towards the back of the stage, somewhat generically, in terms of proximity warmth. 
    11. LR pan of the instrument is determined by the icon location on the stage relative to the main mic.  The dry (and wet) output of MIRPro will be stereo, panned signal
    12. The width of the instrument or ensemble will also be determined from the icon and will effect the dry signal in the stereo panned output in some way.
    13. Instrument and character profiles provide a few typical default EQ curves (and 2100 other settings), in order to get a slightly different engineered sound out of the instrument.  The ones built for MIRx mode are of interest because they have been crafted to make VSL instruments sound great in specific VSL rooms.  These will effect both the dry and wet signals.

     

    If that is all correct as stated, then that about covers it I think.  My overall impression is that the wet signal will generally just take care of itself, it has all the widths, sizes, distances, panning, directivity, reflections and everything else that actually happened in the room...all present in the IR's...  so the wet signal will have all that, but will sound kind of wet because the direct sound to the main mic from all the instruments has been cut out.  You can play around with different mic arrays to hear more or less of the later reflections or to change the stereo width of the wet sound.  Or adjust the dry/wet slider or reverberation time to taste.

    Then we mix the above mentioned MIR-positioned dry signal in with the wet using the wet/dry slider...which has had some of the spatial information engineered back into it, such as panning and directivity, but might not be a complete picture of the actual distance to the main mic in terms of proximity EQ.  We lost that when we removed the direct signal from the main mic.  Its ok, it just means a pre or post EQ may be useful to dial that in exactly if the character profiles aren't enough of a fix.


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    Sorry for the slightly delayed reply, Dewdman. I'm in the midst of a quite demanding recording session ATM, which leaves little spare time for forum discussions. 

    @Another User said:

    If that is all correct as stated, then that about covers it I think. [...]

    *two thumbs up* 😊


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • This whole thread was incredibly useful!  Thank you Dietz and Dewdman.


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    Wonderful educational Dietz!

    Thank you and Dewdman for elaborating on this topic. I'm happy to get that I was (almost) understanding it correctly, but a lot more confirmation and clear-up was made.

    From the first day, I loved MIR, but from the very first day I was wondering that the manual is too little and concise: a great start, but not a deep dive (e.g. how to manage different mics?, how to use the virtual mics creation editor?, how to treat external signals (e.g. other plug-ins or real audio)? etc. etc.)

    Maybe I will write my "questions list" as well :) (don't worry, sooner or later, but more later than soner so you have time to recover Dietz :)


  • Writing a manual is always a "fight" between technical completeness and ease of comprehensibleness. Legacy Vienna MIR (MIR Pro predecessor) lent itself to the first approach, and consequently there were complaints about the complexity and technicality of the manual. I tried to stick to the second approach when compiling the manual for MIR Pro, separating parts of the engineering background to addenum texts - which of course means to omit some of the more technical aspects. 

    ... it's hard to do suit everybody ...


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Hi Dietz,

    thank you for your answers, really interesting. I have bookmarked this thread for future reference. Here is just too much useful information, to let it get lost in the mass.

    Maybe you can add an additional optional chapter in teh manual for the technical stuff?
    (Or even better: Please make a blog/yt-channel filled with your wisdom ; )

    Big thanks and all Best, Ben


    Ben@VSL | IT & Product Specialist
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    @Another User said:

    ... it's hard to do suit everybody ...

    

    As usual. 😊