Dear Vienna Users,

There must be a way to avoid quarrelling in our discussions. For this forum to remain useful and enjoyable, I think it would be necessary to avoid giving too much importance to the simple expression of a judgment (I like / do not like) about a functionality or a tool. It seems to me that we should share our experiences and solving concrete problems. In addition, we should avoid showing our superiority when our interlocutor seems less experienced.

That being said, let say a few words about my own limited experience with custom matrices and articulations. For about 8 years, I've tended to create my own matrices (often by modifying VSL matrices or presets). I preferred one CC to another. I preferred to standardize the use of key switches while Vienna changed them according to the instruments (C0 vs C9, etc.). As my library of VSL instruments grew, so did the work of customization. At this time, the release of Dimension strings was a real challenge! For about two years now, I've been using more readable articulation changes that use scripts (Logic's scripter tool). That's when I realized that it would be better now (more "economical", if you want) to keep (when it is possible) the original matrices of Vienna. I am in the process of modifying my setups in this way. 

The release of Logic 10.4.1 had, first of all, brought me good news. Like many, I was disappointed with some limitations when dealing with articulations. (I took advantage of the ingenious workaround proposed by other users of this forum and I say thank you folks!) The recent update of Logic (10.4.2) is really welcome. I must evaluate now if the approach based on notes/events is more advantageous for me (my uses, my experience, my background, etc.) than that based on scripts/region/tracks.

Once again, I do not pretend that I have the best solution or that I have the truth. The important thing is the exchange of ideas and the sharing of experience.

[And excuse my very bad English!]

Best,

Claude

Hi Cyril,

This is a very good suggestion. Alas, I have very little time this week. Moreover, as I was expecting, I have not decided yet whether I will use the Logic articulations or the scripts (AG) on which I have spent a lot of time in recent months. Before making a definitive choice, I have to see if my current system will respond well (no hanging note, etc.).

Thank you again for your nice proposal. I hope we will have the opportunity to share some work later.

@Cyril Blanc said:

Why dont we split the work ?

Hi Everyone

I didnt know if you had seen these guys https://www.babylonwaves.com/logic-pro/

There articulation plugin they developed has just been updated to include VSL libraries and after the short time ive had playing with it its excellent and may be just what your looking for

i hope this helps

Kindest 

Pul

@Pieman1560 said:

Hi Everyone

I didnt know if you had seen these guys https://www.babylonwaves.com/logic-pro/

There articulation plugin they developed has just been updated to include VSL libraries and after the short time ive had playing with it its excellent and may be just what your looking for

i hope this helps

Kindest 

Pul

Hi Pul,

This looks great, do they support all the instruments of the Cube ? Dimension and Syncron Libraries ?

What articulation sign can be seen in the score ?

Can you post screen shots ?

Best

Cyril

@Pieman1560 said:

Hi Cyril

Currently the selection of available libraries for VSL is small, and as i only have Special Edition 1 and 1Plus I cannot test the other available libraries for you.

Hello Paul

Thank you very much for your answer

Is it possible that you do a screen copy of articulation availlable for the solo violin and the trumpet ?

Do they provide the VE/VI  ?

Best

Cyril

Hi Cyril

I've done a short video showing how it works (with Orchestral SE1 Strings)

The playings not great, so Mozart has nothing to worry about but you'll see how it works mate

if i have more time i'll see how it works in Ensamble (not Ensamble Pro as i dont have it!....yet!)

have a good one mate

Paul

Edit....ive tried to upload the video as a .mov but its not working mate, so i'll try and get it working and upload it ASAP

Hi Cyril

I cant seem to upload videos showing how it works, but it does work in Ensamble too!

ive sent you a PM mate

Kindest regards

Paul

Hi Everyone

I've done a video of how it works and will post a link to youtube once its uploaded

Have a good one

Paul

Hi Everyone

As promised attached are links to the videos

This shows the software working

This shows it working in Ensamble

I hope this helps

Kindest

Paul

Hello

I have bought  https://www.babylonwaves.com/logic-pro/

Just looking at the Solo Violin I have remark that the Up and Down bow articulation where missing.

I have contact Marc, the develloper, and I kindly ask him if he could add Up and Dow bow

The answer was NO, he said it was too much to add UP and Down Bow on each articulation !!!!

Then I ask him only to add on the levell II patch :

Stroke Up and Stroke down

And to kindly refund me if he does not want to do it

His answer is :

>>>>No refund

>>>>Feel free to add whatever you want, there is no reason why you cannot extend the articulation sets yourself. 

it's a kindly f...up

Looking at the contents send with the Violin I have found strange articulation sending ; in Violin Levell II he is sending 3 articulations !! I have never seen this before, I have to check this when I return to the studio

If you think you will have acces to all articulations of an instrument, you can dream, BabylonWare only allow you 32  articulations for the Solo Violin Levell II

So if I was you I will wait to buy this BabylonWave. I will do extensive test mid November

A company that does not want to make it's software evolve does not need to exist

I have also found that the keyboard articulations are not provided, and only the Tympany is provided for percussions

I hope the VSL is going to give us a good Expression Mapping for Logic.

Hi Cyril

I can't help think that your being a bit harsh really, given the functionaltity it gives users of Logic now (the 1st time its been updated for VSL).

I've used this for a while with other software libraries and they add more features all the time. Considering this version was released the same week Logic updated to 10.4.2 i think they've done a brilliant job in offering what they do so soon after a major update and its only a matter of time before it gets better

Kindest regards

Paul

@Pieman1560 said:

i think they've done a brilliant job in offering what they do so soon after a major update and its only a matter of time before it gets better

I have also been very surprised of there non professionnal answer

Let's wait and see

Maybe Marc is going to be more resonnable 

I forgot also to mention that there are no Dimension libs supported neither VSO

Articilation sets are designed to select an articulation. If you want add an information such as Bow Up or Bow Down, you practically double the amount of artulations. Here's why:

"Spiccato" becomes "Spiccato Up Bow" and a second articulation "Spiccato Down Bow". And that would happen for staccato, detache and all other applicable articulations. The articulation list for Vienna Instruments is already faily substantial and once you keep in mind that there are key switches for each articulation it becomes clear that adding Up/Down bowing is not a really good idea. I have tried to explain that to you in my first reply - in a friendly way.

What you really want is 2 articulations which are just there to show the relevant symbol is score and that's something which might work for you but is fairly confusing for the most of us. Those articulations would select no articulation and if you, for instance, have one of those at the beginning of a sequence of note, Logic would simply not know what articulation to switch to. Again, this might work for you but I personally think it's a bad idea in the context of what the most of us do.

"I just ask you to add an articulation for every Level II string two articulations : Up Bow and down bow, I will deal with them in my score. If you dont want to do it I want a refund !"

If you would have looked at my website, you'd learned that there is no refund. And also, that Dimension Strings are not supported. IF you would have asked me in a nicer fashion, instead of backmailing me, I would have refunded your purchase.

Best, Marc

@Another User said:

My second mail was :

Hello

Finaly the A0 and B0 does not re-triger the bow, on some patches you need to press on the same note twice

If you buy Art Conductor you have to be aware that not all the instruments of VSL have there Articulation set provided

So far :

- most of the Keyboard are not there 

- In the SE lib it is say that they have articulation for Muted instrument but as far as I know there is no muted instrument in SE

Just hoping that this going to be fixed

Hi Paul,

I realize this thread is 1-2 years old now, but I am just now "getting my skin into the game", so to speak.

You said you primarily use Sibelius for composing. Is that still the case? What advantages does it afford? I would imagine the printed score looks the best with Sibelius, but what about the sound? WHAT IF great/realistic sound AND a good-looking and readable score are of EQUAL importance? What DAW should I use? Logic? Sibelius? Cubase?

Currently I am using Logic as my DAW and I have licenses for both Vienna Symphonic Library (Symphonic Cube) and the East/West Complete Composer's Collection. I just downloaded the Articulation Sets for Logic Pro X created by Babylon Waves. I have yet to utilize any of this stuff, so I don't know how well everything works, but will find out in due time.

I appreciate your and everyone's input!

QUOTE: "Now (for me at least) its not such an issue as i write all my music in Sibelius anyway as the work VSL have done with the sound sets is lovely and everything just works for me as i need it to, but now if i import the midi into Logic its a breeze to select the articulations i need and to tweek the playback to my hearts content!"

Hi tburg1

How time flies!...blimey.

If I'm honest...I use Sibelius..All the time...for everything!

I write with it, and tweak everything with it...as for me...using notation is far more enjoyable than piano roll!

I really like your point about What if Great Sound is as important as a good looking Score!

I use Sibelius....with VSL....there sound sets...and a plugin from Santiago Barx called 'Graphical Midi Tools'....that I think is amazing!

Using it, with libraries from VSL allow you to tweak ANY CC midi date you want, adjust the start of notes, and velocity all directly from the score using a little graphical interface.

For me....it's perfect...and as result I don't use Logic at all now.

If you use Sibelius Ultimate...with VSL....give it a go and see what you think.

As a side note...I think what Babylon Waves has done for Logic is brilliant...and I contacted Marc recently to see if he could work his magic on Sibelius sound sets as well...so who knows what the future holds.

You say you use the Cube and have the composer cloud from East West...then you're in a good place as the Sound set Project do sound sets for most of those instruments.

So to recap...in the time thats passed I've learned just to use Sibelius...for everything...as I'm more than happy with what can be achieved using it....but I also understand completely that it may not be for everyone....as yes..it involves a learning curve...but staying in notation...and seeing everything laid out over your score is just lovely!

I cannot recommend Sibelius Ultimate enough..and I think what VSL have achieved with the integration is magnificent..give it ago and see what you think!

I have done a few video blogs on my website www.everythingsibelius.com and most of them relate to playback configurations etc with VSL and I review and use that plugin too.

I hope this helps you out...

Take care mate, have a good one

Kindest

Paul

Paul,

Thank you so much for your insights! You have convinced me to try Sibelius Ultimate with VSL. I'm with you in that I really like to SEE what I hear. For self-education, I like to study printed orchestral scores (like mini scores or conductor's versions) while listening to a recording of the piece from a real professional orchestra. So I think my mind is already attuned to this way of approaching music: both sight and sound. I think what I will do with my next composition is simultaneously compose it in Sibelius Ultimate AND Logic Pro X and see which works best for me. I am just getting back into composing after a very LONG hiatus, and in the past I used first Cubase and then Logic, and found the sound to be good, but the notation atrocious. I will check out some of your videos. 

Thanks Again!