wet/dry ratio & pre-delay for creating depth

[maxkc]

Hi everybody,

I just came across an other thread, where a member asked, if it is possible to use a 3rd party reverb-plugin for replacing Miracle in terms of algorithmically enhancing a Mir-venue. Dietz replied, when doing so, not to forget to turn off the pre-delay for avoiding to setup a room in a room. If I'm not completely wrong, do the enhance presets in Miracle not have pre-delay times of several ms, 10 or more? Should I set those times to 0 ms when chosing an enhance-preset for a given venue?

In the same thinking, when setting up your room with the MirX for example, you often said, 63 would be a carefully adjusted preset for any instrument. Would you go further in your mixes and vary that amount for creating more depth, like under 63 for close instruments (strings), 63 for brass and reeds and +63 for percussion for example? Here's why I ask: I'm using the Teldex-venue for my arrangements and sometimes I have the impression (on speakers and on headphones), that the reeds (ensemble preset, not solos) are pretty much sitting in front of the strings and the strins in the same line than the brass instruments. Percussion instruments also sound pretty near and direct. When enhancing everything now with Miracle (nomatter the pre-delay-time of that specific enhance-preset), this doesn't contribute to the mix in the sense of creating more distinguished depth in the field. Would you leave the dry/wet ratio to 63 and work more with the Miracle-adjustments or did I overlook something important (when working with the MirX-presets)?

Sry for asking these two questions in one thread but I think, the two questions are related to each other.

Thank you very much,

Christian

[Dietz]

Hi Christian,

@Another User said:

In the same thinking, when setting up your room with the MirX for example, you often said, 63 would be a carefully adjusted preset for any instrument. Would you go further in your mixes and vary that amount for creating more depth, like under 63 for close instruments (strings), 63 for brass and reeds and +63 for percussion for example? Here's why I ask: I'm using the Teldex-venue for my arrangements and sometimes I have the impression (on speakers and on headphones), that the reeds (ensemble preset, not solos) are pretty much sitting in front of the strings and the strins in the same line than the brass instruments. Percussion instruments also sound pretty near and direct. When enhancing everything now with Miracle (nomatter the pre-delay-time of that specific enhance-preset), this doesn't contribute to the mix in the sense of creating more distinguished depth in the field. Would you leave the dry/wet ratio to 63 and work more with the Miracle-adjustments or did I overlook something important (when working with the MirX-presets)?

My presets are starting points at best. In many cases I would see them even as suggestions only. They can't provide you with ready-mades for any composition or arrangement, as hard as I try. 😊 Please don't hesitate to change any parameter in any way your mix asks for - just make sure to _listen_ what actually happens (... not just to the instruments you're actually working on, but all others, too). 

Personally, I would try to get things right with MIR only first. For me, adding algorithmic reverb is just the icing on the cake. EQs are another powerful tool to shape the presence (and hence the "closeness") of a signal source, and I hardly ever have a track without any treatment in a mix. 8-) ... mind you, that's just my personal way of doing things. I have heard great mixes consisting of nothing than carefully balanced and positioned (and masterfully programmed!), but otherwise pure tracks. 

HTH,

[maxkc]

Well Dietz, first of all, thank you very much for the explanation about the dry/wet-ratio.

And at this point, I have to admit, that I was wrong with what I wrote about your previous post. You wrote to set the ERs to 0 and when checking my MIRacle, I accidentally looked for the pre-delay-value, so my mistake. Sorry for that. I know the difference between pre-delay and ERs but I guess, the heat is too much now for me here. :)

In that same post you wrote the following: I post it now not that I am messing things up again

Therefore, all remnants of direct signals were removed carefully from the impulse responses used for MIR. In other words: "Full wet" is not what you would hear in the chosen Venue! Like that you will miss all the highly important location cues of that reach you ear before any reflection coming from the room will do.

With this in mind and regarding your explanations from today, that your 63-values for the dry/wet-ratio are only suggestions and parameters, we can change to convenience, am I correct to assume, you would advise against going for that "full wet"-value, as there would be no direct signal and therefore an unrealistic sound/representation of the instrument in the given venue?

And sorry again for mixing things up with your previous post.

[Dietz]

Oh, thanks for the quick clarification. 😊 ... but nobody's immune to momentary wording errors - especially not me.

😄

@maxkc said:

[...] am I correct to assume, you would advise against going for that "full wet"-value, as there would be no direct signal and therefore an unrealistic sound/representation of the instrument in the given venue?

Yes, totally. In MIR, "full wet" might be a great move for the occasional special effect, but most certainly not for everyday work.

[maxkc]

You're welcome :)

I have now tried different dry/wet values and found (in my specific setup), that when setting the ratio for strings around 50, woodwinds and brass around 85 and percussion around 100 (not higher than 100 as I want to keep the direct spot sound), and finalizing it all with a gentle Miracle enhance-preset, I get a clearer depth impression. It's as you said, those 63-presets are good starting values.

Thank you very much for your time. Have a great evening.