@daerp said:

why should a hobbyist be seen as needing or deserving less protection than the active professional? I know you were just speculating that a hobbyist would have a harder time getting insurance than me or you, but I am steadfast in defending the amateur (not in the literal sense) against any discrimination of this sort.

.

Actually, that wasn't speculation.  I was told that a "hobbyist," and that was the word they used, wouldn't take as much care of the key as a professional whose livelihood depended on the licenses the key contained.  Now you may think that's a bunch of crap and I would have to agree but there was a time when car insurance companies in the United States used to charge more for red colored cars than any other color because they thought that anybody who wanted a red car was surely a wild risk taker, thus more of a liability.  Of course today this practice is illegal.

As I said in my last post, insurance companies are just having a hard time trying to assess the risk factor involved. Anything else, cars, homes, jewelry, etc. they just plug into their computer models which do the assessing for them and come out with a premium.

To give you an idea of just how completely clueless insurance brokers are in this arena I remember a conversation I was having with one while shopping for insurance for my key years ago in which the broker told me she would have to talk to VSL to find out exactly why they warranty the key for only two years.  When I told her VSL was based in Vienna, Austria she told me she would have to contact their European office.  A week went by before I finally wrote her back for a resolution.  She said, "I'm sorry but it would appear that nobody in our European office speaks Austrian only German😛😕😛😕"

So feeling like a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest I just gave up and asked Allstate which is my home owners insurance.

Perhaps it sounds like a joke for many insurance companies to insure software....
I struggled hard with the decision to sell my VSL Licenses to get rid of my Dongle nightmares and to buy from a more custumer friendly company. But it may be hard to find a buyer...

(Because: "To find a buyer, these are the rules:

1. The buyer must be found privately and the products must not be advertised in the VSL forum.
2. Auction platform like eBay are not allowed.  ")

You should be able to find a buyer on KVR audio or on vi-control. Just be aware that some other sample developers don't allow resales. You might want to factor that in for future buying decisions. In that regard VSL is on the customer friendlier site.

If your elicenser key is under warranty you won't have to pay the 20€ per license to restore them. So yes, buying a new key every two years spares you these costs in case of dongle failure. It doesn't help you if the dongle is stolen or lost, though. In these cases you'll have to rebuy the libraries at 50% of their list price.

Thanks a lot Dominique. 
Yep, obviously It was pretty clear to me it can't help in case the dongle in stolen or lost. But I'm seriusly thinking to purchase a new elicenser. This one I have is from my first Cubase 6, that means like 2011!

Good morning, 

I am really hoping someone at Vienna is replying to this: I discovered by chance this thread and I'm literally horrified but, before jumping to conclusions and make decicions I want to be sure of what I read here:

Any licence for any Vienna product is ONLY existing/valid inside the usb licencer that I have (I own the whole Special Edition and VEP5). If it deteriorates (yes, this happens) or is stolen/lost, broken or whatever AM I LOOSING ALL OF MY PRODUCTS? By the way, is this legal at all?

I mean, there are objective proofs of every one one of these purchases, like regular receipts and of course, registered bank transactions. 

I am understanding that even with these evidences if, let's say, a cup of coffee falls on my key on my table or it falls while I'm moving from one city to another (that happens 2 times a week) I am literally loosing the core of my library in the middle of projects deadlines?

I'm really hoping I'm wrong and I'll get an answer from someone from Vienna.

best regards,

Matteo Nahum

media composer, Valencia

ps. no one walks with 1000 buck in the wallet, guess why...

Hello Matteo, 

This is the current situation with eLicenser: 

Generally, the most valuable part of our products is the license which is stored on the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. With our copy protection partner eLicenser (owned by Steinberg / Yamaha), we don't have access to the licenses on the keys of our users, so we're not able to restore and/or transfer any lost or stolen license to a new key. Also, it's technically not possible to disable the licenses or the key via remote. This means that whoever steals or finds a key can use the contained license without any restrictions, if he also has access to the samples, and software, e.g., from a friend.

Users who lost the key (or whose key has been stolen) will have to purchase a new license, and of course a new key. What we can offer uninsured users to meet them halfway in this situation is a replacement license at the reduced price of 50% of the full price of the licensed product(s).
Every user is responsible for his keys and licenses himself, we're not obliged to replace any lost or stolen keys at all, like e.g. lost or stolen jewelry wouldn't be replaced unless it's insured. That's why we recommend to insure all products you licensed.

In case a ViennaKey is damaged, users have to send it to our office in Vienna (American users: to the office of our distributor ILIO based in California) to enable us to take a look at the kind of the damage.
If the damage on the ViennaKey shows signs of external force, he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey, and a handling fee for the new licenses (EUR 20 per contained license, minimum fee EUR 30). If a ViennaKey is registered to a user account, it's a lot easier for us to find out which licenses were stored on the Key.
If the ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license free of charge if he can verify the warranty period by sending us the invoice of the purchase of the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. That's why we recommend to purchase a new key every two years and to keep the invoice at a safe place.

The quickest and easiest temporary solution in a case like this is to buy a new ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. After registration of the new key, we can send you a demo license which enables you to bridge at least some time (48 hours) until the order of the replacement license is processed, which usually takes 1-3 business days once we’ve received the broken key. Of course it's not a bad idea to have a spare key in your studio, to ensure that you have no downtime at all in the event of a lost or broken key.

Best, 
Paul

Good morning Paul,

I appreciate the completeness and rapidity of your answer, even if I need some more clarifications and also, I would like to offer some considerations about this.

I don't understand what you mean for "buying a new licence" (sorry, my bad) for 20 euro. If I understand it correctly I would not be requested to buy the whole products (in my case VEP5 and the S Edition) that is more than a thousand  euros but a 20 euros licence for every library or product I owe, am I right?

I didn't knew about an insurance for your libraries/licensers: in my case, the key, that is perfectly working is older than 2 years (2014). What is your raccomandations or plans available for any incident that actually can happen? Having a second key with a copy of the licenses? Should I buy a new key and "transfer" the licenses from the older to the newest so that I'm again in a renewed warranty period?

As you can imagine, being a media composer at the early stages of the carreer, and being at this point the SE and VEP5 literally the core of my orchestral template, I cannot run risks with it and even if I take care of my things, accidents in life happen on a regular basis. I'm sure you understand that being forced to buy again the same product (if I'm not understanding it wrongly) that is also no longer new and "fresh" let's say, other than being economically impossible would literally make no sense and, as a consequence would literally throw me away as a (happy, up to now) Vienna customer. But, of course, I may have understood it incorrectly.

By the way, owning also 2 iLoks (for altiverb, note performer and many other licenses) I cannot avoid noticing a difference in politics and manageabiliy of the licenses that is absolutely not viable for a "surviving" composer.

hope my questions are clear,

all the best,

Matteo Nahum

Hello Matteo, 

Let's try to filter your questions: 

1) I don't understand what you mean for "buying a new licence" (sorry, my bad) for 20 euro. If I understand it correctly I would not be requested to buy the whole products (in my case VEP5 and the S Edition) that is more than a thousand  euros but a 20 euros licence for every library or product I owe, am I right?

=> If we know that the license is stored on a key that does not work anymore, we also know that we can hand out a replacement license. This replacement license is 20 EUR.

2) I didn't knew about an insurance for your libraries/licensers: in my case, the key, that is perfectly working is older than 2 years (2014). What is your raccomandations or plans available for any incident that actually can happen?

=> You should get a new key every 2 years and transfer the licenses onto this new key. This way, the hardware warranty will allow us to replace both the key and the licenses without any costs, if it fails without any signs of misuse or damage. 

3) Having a second key with a copy of the licenses?

=> No. It is all about copy protection. You cannot copy licenses. 

4) Should I buy a new key and "transfer" the licenses from the older to the newest so that I'm again in a renewed warranty period?

=> Yes. 

You are also correct that iLok has a different system. We all hope that we can come up with a better solution with eLicenser/Steinberg, and we rely 100% on their help here. 

Right now, we are working with the available possibilities. 

Best, 
Paul

Thanks Paul.

I'm absolutely fine in purchasing a new key even if mine is perfectly working but....

....what happens in the worst scenario where the key is lost/stolen due to traveling, moving by

car - train - plane with it, with all the connected risks?

Should I literally buy again all of my products (you already know I own it because of registration

and bank account transfer and invoice you emitted), even if at half prize (not doable, of course....)?

M

Hello Matteo, 

Yes, in case of loss and theft the only possibility (if the licenses are not insured) is to purchase replacement licenses for 50% of the full price. 

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul!

can you recommend any insurance company in Germany / Europe that not onlycovers the hardware dongle, but also the licenses on that key? I have not found any on the web :(

Best regards,

Ben

Hi Ben, 

The last time we checked, we found 2 insurance companies in Austria, but it is a very specific request, especially if you are not insuring all other music gear in your studio. 

Unfortunately it's hard to keep track of all possibilities, but an insurance broker should be able to help. 

Best, 
Paul

Hello

Can you give us the name and the contact references of those two insurances

Thanks

Hello Paul, thanks again for answering.

I understand from the following answers that there is no "insurance" service Vienna is offering but that I have to go to a normal private insurance company and try to explain this situation, am I right? If not, where can I find informations about such an insurance plan?

I am not a sound libraries producer and dealer so I'm not commenting or discussing your position but I would like to examine the situation from my side, hoping that this will push you to move to a different anti-piracy system.

At this point I am supposed to pay some more money to a third party (if I'm not wrong, otherwise sorry about that) to be sure I can continue using an essential part of equipment that I already have bought (and there are tangible proves of it) in case of loss of an USB key that is not only on no value for me but also annoying since, as the equally annoying iLOK, it makes me use a supplementary usb hub that I don't need otherwise. But there is piracy and it's understandable as well as I would like to protect my records. What, to my point of view, appears less fair is that in consequences, I am forced to pay more money for not running the risk of having my activity heavily hit because someone else is pirating your libraries. With the same logic I should sell my records at 50euros or so because of piracy or spotify, so that I make the honest dealer pay also for the thief. Remember, that's only the situation seen from my side.

Moreover, this situations, as far as I know (I am also a happy Native Instruments, Motu, Spitfire Audio etc. client) is only specific to Vienna. Probably the other ones accept piracy as part of the business (as well as I do for my records, and I'm aware it's a problem!) or have a better functioning anti-piracy system, that I really urge you to organize because, at this point this situation have some consequences:

I feel that having my system based on Vienna products is simply too risky: at some points you mentioned that I should take care to my usb as it were jewelry but the use of my usb vienna key and of a diamond are quite different, as long as you don't travel on plane, train, car, stay in hotels, move from studio to studio with a diamond because...it's too dangerous.... :) 

In practical terms, even if I'm a *very happy* Vienna libraries and, even more, VEP user I'm literally forced to update my libraries (as soon as I economically can) moving to other companies that don't put my activity at risk so that I can rely only to VEP as the core of my system and minimize the risk. By the way I'll be updating to 6 (that was on my to-do list) only if an unfortunate loss happen. 

So....from one side I feel like I'm literally pushed away from your products (again, that I love) and on the other you're not selling me anything more, unless you change the licensing system and even worse, even if I want to.

I discovered this is not happening only to me so, really, I hope there will be very soon a change in this system so that I can be your client again.

hope you get this analysis as a positive criticism, that is the way I intended it and hope we can stay in touch with good news soon.

all the best,

Matteo Nahum, media composer, Valencia (Spain)

Hi, 

Thanks for your input, we are very aware that this is not the best solution, but it is the only one we can offer at this point. 

As mentioned before, it has been a while, so I cannot guarantee anything, but here are two links to German / Austrian insurances where we know that they offer/used to offer insurance for licenses on dongles / keys:

http://www.vhv-vertriebsinfo.de

http://www.zurich.de

=> More specifically, insurance of hardware keys/licenses is only possible when insuring "bigger bundles":

In Austria, you can also check here:
http://www.klugfuermusiker.at

USA:

MusicPro Insurance recommended by ASCAP (American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers):

http://www.ascap.com/benefits/musicpro.aspx

http://www.musicproinsurance.com

Best, 
Paul

Hi, 

I'm afraid it is impossible to scan all insurances in so many countries, but I suggest to contact an insurance broker. 

Best, 
Paul