For me as customer this policy is a cause for serious concern. That is something I will factor in for future purchase decisions. Especially now with the whole new range of Synchron Stage libraries coming I am not likely to spend another several thousand dollars on VSL libraries that all would be lost in case of fire or theft.

Please VSL revaluate this policy. There must be ways to protect your libraries and still give the customers security. Especially as it is not easy nor cheap to have the licenses insured.

@Buzzard said:

Yes Jasen - I had read that elsewhere in this thread and until today I wasn't aware of that.  But I'm not sure how exactly that would work.  How does VSL know what licenses are on dongle that failed?  I have two dongles that I purchased in 2015, but I can't look up the serial number of when I registered them and VSL would have no clue what (if anything) I had on them.

Go to MyVSL.  In the upper left hand side select MyProducts.  Along the top you will see three items, "Software," "Instruments" and "ViennaKey/elicenser."  I think the Software and Instruments are selected by default so select the ViennaKey/elicenser and scroll all the way down.  There you should see all of your keys when they were registered and their serial numbers. 

As to which licenses each key is holding Steinberg may have a record of that because you have to go on to their site in order to enter the activation codes.

I understand your "spread the risk" strategy but you might want to rethink it because it would be a real pain trying to keep six different keys up to warranty.

@jasensmith said:

I understand your "spread the risk" strategy but you might want to rethink it because it would be a real pain trying to keep six different keys up to warranty.

I agree with you now that I know the rules.  Two of my dongles just expired so I just ordered a new one.  I'm going to dump all of my licences on to that.  The eLicenser software does backup "something" to Steinberg.  So there is some record.

Thanks for your help on this!!!

Lenny

You're welcome.

One last point.  If your key fails and it's within that two year warranty you'll have to send the key to VSL with the invoice I guess as proof of purchase.

However, if you're based in North America and you bought your key from ilio.com you'll have to send it to ilio which is convenient because ilio will have an invoice on record so you don't need to keep it.

Anywhere else... Keep the invoice.

@antcarrier said:

I'm I big fan of VSL and own a lot of their products. That said, I always feel a bit apprehensive about buying new VSL products since becoming aware of this issue. VSL has the worst licensing policy of any software company I have ever dealt with. I've guarded my keys with my life, but if anything did ever happen to them and I had to deal with this policy, I think I'd feel a bit insulted as a long term VSL customer, especially considering the significant financial investment required to buy the library over the years. I understand that piracy needs to be prevented, but the VSL license policy just seems to be punishing the hard working, honest musos that pay for their tools.

+1

I also invested al lot of my few Money in VSL-Products and really like them. I have 2 Computers, one at Home, the other at our Studio. I bought two Licenses of Cubase and Halion because I often forgot my Dongle and was afraid of damaging it by often plugin it in and out. But I won't buy two Licenses of all that VSL Stuff. Other Companys have much better Solutions against Piracy which allow you use their Software on 2 or even 3 Computers and switch the Licenses onlini or via Software!!. "VSL has the worst licensing policy of any software company I have ever dealt with" - Yes thats true and thats because I decidet to buy no more VSL-Products. And I know I'm not the only one... And it makes my sad....  )-:

@daerp said:

I have seen so many strategies to combat software piracy by various companies over the years. Nothing even comes close to the - in my opinion deeply flawed - VSL strategy.

But if it's "flawed" that would imply that elicenser has been cracked right?  In other words, pirates have broken the codes and are selling them all over the Internet. AFAIK this is not the case.  So to me that would be A flawLESS strategy.  Now it may cost VSL some customers but it must be only a negligible amount because they are still using the same system.

As far as Insurance is concerned here's my experience:

I too had a hard time finding anybody who would insure the licenses on a little piece of plastic.  The problem is they have a hard time trying to determine the risk involved when insuring software licenses contained on a USB dongle. Where is this dongle stored? In a locked box? Is the humidity high there? Will a power surge have any affect on key? etc. 

Every company I went to wanted to know the same thing: Are you a professional musician who needs these software products in order to maintain your livelihood?  Or are you just a hobbyist?

Oddly enough it was my homeowner's insurance who finally gave me a limited policy.  They already gave me small business insurance to cover the gear in my studio so basically the software was just deemed part of my studio gear so I just increased the value of my gear.  If the key leaves my studio, I'm screwed.  If somebody broke into my studio and stole just the key, leaving the $3,000 system its attached to, I'm screwed.  If the key is beyond the warranty period offered by VSL, I'm screwed.  Otherwise it's covered.

If you are a hobbyist, you will have a harder time with insurance.

@daerp said:

why should a hobbyist be seen as needing or deserving less protection than the active professional? I know you were just speculating that a hobbyist would have a harder time getting insurance than me or you, but I am steadfast in defending the amateur (not in the literal sense) against any discrimination of this sort.

.

Actually, that wasn't speculation.  I was told that a "hobbyist," and that was the word they used, wouldn't take as much care of the key as a professional whose livelihood depended on the licenses the key contained.  Now you may think that's a bunch of crap and I would have to agree but there was a time when car insurance companies in the United States used to charge more for red colored cars than any other color because they thought that anybody who wanted a red car was surely a wild risk taker, thus more of a liability.  Of course today this practice is illegal.

As I said in my last post, insurance companies are just having a hard time trying to assess the risk factor involved. Anything else, cars, homes, jewelry, etc. they just plug into their computer models which do the assessing for them and come out with a premium.

To give you an idea of just how completely clueless insurance brokers are in this arena I remember a conversation I was having with one while shopping for insurance for my key years ago in which the broker told me she would have to talk to VSL to find out exactly why they warranty the key for only two years.  When I told her VSL was based in Vienna, Austria she told me she would have to contact their European office.  A week went by before I finally wrote her back for a resolution.  She said, "I'm sorry but it would appear that nobody in our European office speaks Austrian only German😛😕😛😕"

So feeling like a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest I just gave up and asked Allstate which is my home owners insurance.

Perhaps it sounds like a joke for many insurance companies to insure software....
I struggled hard with the decision to sell my VSL Licenses to get rid of my Dongle nightmares and to buy from a more custumer friendly company. But it may be hard to find a buyer...

(Because: "To find a buyer, these are the rules:

1. The buyer must be found privately and the products must not be advertised in the VSL forum.
2. Auction platform like eBay are not allowed.  ")

You should be able to find a buyer on KVR audio or on vi-control. Just be aware that some other sample developers don't allow resales. You might want to factor that in for future buying decisions. In that regard VSL is on the customer friendlier site.

If your elicenser key is under warranty you won't have to pay the 20€ per license to restore them. So yes, buying a new key every two years spares you these costs in case of dongle failure. It doesn't help you if the dongle is stolen or lost, though. In these cases you'll have to rebuy the libraries at 50% of their list price.

Thanks a lot Dominique. 
Yep, obviously It was pretty clear to me it can't help in case the dongle in stolen or lost. But I'm seriusly thinking to purchase a new elicenser. This one I have is from my first Cubase 6, that means like 2011!

Good morning, 

I am really hoping someone at Vienna is replying to this: I discovered by chance this thread and I'm literally horrified but, before jumping to conclusions and make decicions I want to be sure of what I read here:

Any licence for any Vienna product is ONLY existing/valid inside the usb licencer that I have (I own the whole Special Edition and VEP5). If it deteriorates (yes, this happens) or is stolen/lost, broken or whatever AM I LOOSING ALL OF MY PRODUCTS? By the way, is this legal at all?

I mean, there are objective proofs of every one one of these purchases, like regular receipts and of course, registered bank transactions. 

I am understanding that even with these evidences if, let's say, a cup of coffee falls on my key on my table or it falls while I'm moving from one city to another (that happens 2 times a week) I am literally loosing the core of my library in the middle of projects deadlines?

I'm really hoping I'm wrong and I'll get an answer from someone from Vienna.

best regards,

Matteo Nahum

media composer, Valencia

ps. no one walks with 1000 buck in the wallet, guess why...

Hello Matteo, 

This is the current situation with eLicenser: 

Generally, the most valuable part of our products is the license which is stored on the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. With our copy protection partner eLicenser (owned by Steinberg / Yamaha), we don't have access to the licenses on the keys of our users, so we're not able to restore and/or transfer any lost or stolen license to a new key. Also, it's technically not possible to disable the licenses or the key via remote. This means that whoever steals or finds a key can use the contained license without any restrictions, if he also has access to the samples, and software, e.g., from a friend.

Users who lost the key (or whose key has been stolen) will have to purchase a new license, and of course a new key. What we can offer uninsured users to meet them halfway in this situation is a replacement license at the reduced price of 50% of the full price of the licensed product(s).
Every user is responsible for his keys and licenses himself, we're not obliged to replace any lost or stolen keys at all, like e.g. lost or stolen jewelry wouldn't be replaced unless it's insured. That's why we recommend to insure all products you licensed.

In case a ViennaKey is damaged, users have to send it to our office in Vienna (American users: to the office of our distributor ILIO based in California) to enable us to take a look at the kind of the damage.
If the damage on the ViennaKey shows signs of external force, he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey, and a handling fee for the new licenses (EUR 20 per contained license, minimum fee EUR 30). If a ViennaKey is registered to a user account, it's a lot easier for us to find out which licenses were stored on the Key.
If the ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license free of charge if he can verify the warranty period by sending us the invoice of the purchase of the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. That's why we recommend to purchase a new key every two years and to keep the invoice at a safe place.

The quickest and easiest temporary solution in a case like this is to buy a new ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. After registration of the new key, we can send you a demo license which enables you to bridge at least some time (48 hours) until the order of the replacement license is processed, which usually takes 1-3 business days once we’ve received the broken key. Of course it's not a bad idea to have a spare key in your studio, to ensure that you have no downtime at all in the event of a lost or broken key.

Best, 
Paul

Good morning Paul,

I appreciate the completeness and rapidity of your answer, even if I need some more clarifications and also, I would like to offer some considerations about this.

I don't understand what you mean for "buying a new licence" (sorry, my bad) for 20 euro. If I understand it correctly I would not be requested to buy the whole products (in my case VEP5 and the S Edition) that is more than a thousand  euros but a 20 euros licence for every library or product I owe, am I right?

I didn't knew about an insurance for your libraries/licensers: in my case, the key, that is perfectly working is older than 2 years (2014). What is your raccomandations or plans available for any incident that actually can happen? Having a second key with a copy of the licenses? Should I buy a new key and "transfer" the licenses from the older to the newest so that I'm again in a renewed warranty period?

As you can imagine, being a media composer at the early stages of the carreer, and being at this point the SE and VEP5 literally the core of my orchestral template, I cannot run risks with it and even if I take care of my things, accidents in life happen on a regular basis. I'm sure you understand that being forced to buy again the same product (if I'm not understanding it wrongly) that is also no longer new and "fresh" let's say, other than being economically impossible would literally make no sense and, as a consequence would literally throw me away as a (happy, up to now) Vienna customer. But, of course, I may have understood it incorrectly.

By the way, owning also 2 iLoks (for altiverb, note performer and many other licenses) I cannot avoid noticing a difference in politics and manageabiliy of the licenses that is absolutely not viable for a "surviving" composer.

hope my questions are clear,

all the best,

Matteo Nahum

Hello Matteo, 

Let's try to filter your questions: 

1) I don't understand what you mean for "buying a new licence" (sorry, my bad) for 20 euro. If I understand it correctly I would not be requested to buy the whole products (in my case VEP5 and the S Edition) that is more than a thousand  euros but a 20 euros licence for every library or product I owe, am I right?

=> If we know that the license is stored on a key that does not work anymore, we also know that we can hand out a replacement license. This replacement license is 20 EUR.

2) I didn't knew about an insurance for your libraries/licensers: in my case, the key, that is perfectly working is older than 2 years (2014). What is your raccomandations or plans available for any incident that actually can happen?

=> You should get a new key every 2 years and transfer the licenses onto this new key. This way, the hardware warranty will allow us to replace both the key and the licenses without any costs, if it fails without any signs of misuse or damage. 

3) Having a second key with a copy of the licenses?

=> No. It is all about copy protection. You cannot copy licenses. 

4) Should I buy a new key and "transfer" the licenses from the older to the newest so that I'm again in a renewed warranty period?

=> Yes. 

You are also correct that iLok has a different system. We all hope that we can come up with a better solution with eLicenser/Steinberg, and we rely 100% on their help here. 

Right now, we are working with the available possibilities. 

Best, 
Paul

Thanks Paul.

I'm absolutely fine in purchasing a new key even if mine is perfectly working but....

....what happens in the worst scenario where the key is lost/stolen due to traveling, moving by

car - train - plane with it, with all the connected risks?

Should I literally buy again all of my products (you already know I own it because of registration

and bank account transfer and invoice you emitted), even if at half prize (not doable, of course....)?

M