Hello,

I am also a loyal user of VSL products for almost 8 years. I'd even say that I'm a VSL fan. I started with the Special Edition, then I gradually invested large sums of money to complete my collection. Today, I am lucky to have the complete Vienna libraries and software.

The issue raised here is fundamental, even if it is not new at all. By consulting the forum, we can go back a long way ... I am surprised that Vienna has not reconsidered its position and took opportunities offered by technological change as they did, for example, using more and more systematically direct download for the purchase of new instruments. I note, like others, that in all the products I use for my work (academic studies in the humanities) or my leisure activities (serious amateur musician), VSL is the only company whose practice in the field of intellectual property protection is so severe and harmful to its honest customers.

How can we justify such commercial practices in 2017 when other companies have found satisfactory solutions for all? Steinberg seems to be a good example of this. In addition, in recent years other products have come to compete more and more seriously VSL for professional uses. Although I still believe that VSL is well ahead, I think this is a challenge not to be overlooked and that the dongle replacement policy is a more and more negative element not only for its current customers, but also for potential new customers.

Finally, I do not think Vienna could maintain its policy if it were based in my country because it would conflict with the legislation. Moreover, I still didn’t find yet an insurance company that agrees to cover my risks.

Thank you for continuing to keep our exchanges of views in this thread in a spirit of mutual respect.

Claude B.

I too have a lot of money tied up on these little dongles.  I'm not so afraid of losing them, but I'm afraid of them failing.  Plus I have to manage my licenses carefully which is too much overhead.  I can only use VSL in my home studio since I'm too afraid to take the dongles anywhere; I keep them locked up when not in use.

My bigger fear is that one will fail.  I just had a scare today when the eLicenser software said one of my dongles had failed.  I pretty much freaked.  Fortunately I went over to an older computer that had USB 2.0 and an older version of the eLicenser software and the dongle worked there.  I copied the licenses off to known good dongle.  Then I took the known good dongle and put it back in the orignal computer.  This time I could read the dongle, but the licenses were wrong.  I killed the licensing software and rebooted the computer and "magically" I could see my missing licenses.  This has happened before and doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

I keep my VSL licenses on 6 different dongles, just in case one does acually fail.  This would minimize my loss.  I suppose if my house burns down I could claim the $12,000 or so dollars on my insurance, but then I would be saying goodbye to VSL for good.

A better approach to me is like the iLok or Waves solution.  For my purchases protected by iLok, I can transfer the licenses to the iLok Cloud when I'm not using them.  The only time I keep licenses on my iLok is if I'm using them.  The same goes for Waves, I don't keep the Wave licenses on my computer unless I'm using them.  I travel a lot and if someone were to steal my iLok or my laptop, my iLok and Waves licenses are safely stored in "The Cloud".  Doing all of these transfers is still a major pain, but at least I can protect my investments.  eLicense doesn't have a "Cloud" where licenses can be offloaded when not in use.

Recently I have been largely switching to products that do not require iLok and I tend to use those more.  VSL now has a lot of serious and good competition in this field.  They would be wise to a better solution for thier loyal customers otherwise they will lose them to Kontakt library makers.  I can use my Kontakt libraries without having to resort to all the overhead involved in dealing with dongles or moving liceneses to the cloud.

Lenny H

You do know that there is a two year warranty on the dongle right?

If the dongle fails and it is within the two year warranty send it in to VSL and they will replace the licenses, and dongle, free of charge.  Unless of course the dongle failed due to negligence on your part.

The downside of course is you have to buy a new key every two years and transfer the licenses.  But, if you have 12 grand in licenses spread out over 6 keys then spending the 30 or 40 bucks on a new key every two years shouldn't be that much of concern to you. 

@jasensmith said:

You do know that there is a two year warranty on the dongle right?

If the dongle fails and it is within the two year warranty send it in to VSL and they will replace the licenses, and dongle, free of charge.  Unless of course the dongle failed due to negligence on your part.

The downside of course is you have to buy a new key every two years and transfer the licenses.  But, if you have 12 grand in licenses spread out over 6 keys then spending the 30 or 40 bucks on a new key every two years shouldn't be that much of concern to you. 

Yes Jasen - I had read that elsewhere in this thread and until today I wasn't aware of that.  But I'm not sure how exactly that would work.  How does VSL know what licenses are on dongle that failed?  I have two dongles that I purchased in 2015, but I can't look up the serial number of when I registered them and VSL would have no clue what (if anything) I had on them.

For me as customer this policy is a cause for serious concern. That is something I will factor in for future purchase decisions. Especially now with the whole new range of Synchron Stage libraries coming I am not likely to spend another several thousand dollars on VSL libraries that all would be lost in case of fire or theft.

Please VSL revaluate this policy. There must be ways to protect your libraries and still give the customers security. Especially as it is not easy nor cheap to have the licenses insured.

@Buzzard said:

Yes Jasen - I had read that elsewhere in this thread and until today I wasn't aware of that.  But I'm not sure how exactly that would work.  How does VSL know what licenses are on dongle that failed?  I have two dongles that I purchased in 2015, but I can't look up the serial number of when I registered them and VSL would have no clue what (if anything) I had on them.

Go to MyVSL.  In the upper left hand side select MyProducts.  Along the top you will see three items, "Software," "Instruments" and "ViennaKey/elicenser."  I think the Software and Instruments are selected by default so select the ViennaKey/elicenser and scroll all the way down.  There you should see all of your keys when they were registered and their serial numbers. 

As to which licenses each key is holding Steinberg may have a record of that because you have to go on to their site in order to enter the activation codes.

I understand your "spread the risk" strategy but you might want to rethink it because it would be a real pain trying to keep six different keys up to warranty.

@jasensmith said:

I understand your "spread the risk" strategy but you might want to rethink it because it would be a real pain trying to keep six different keys up to warranty.

I agree with you now that I know the rules.  Two of my dongles just expired so I just ordered a new one.  I'm going to dump all of my licences on to that.  The eLicenser software does backup "something" to Steinberg.  So there is some record.

Thanks for your help on this!!!

Lenny

You're welcome.

One last point.  If your key fails and it's within that two year warranty you'll have to send the key to VSL with the invoice I guess as proof of purchase.

However, if you're based in North America and you bought your key from ilio.com you'll have to send it to ilio which is convenient because ilio will have an invoice on record so you don't need to keep it.

Anywhere else... Keep the invoice.

@antcarrier said:

I'm I big fan of VSL and own a lot of their products. That said, I always feel a bit apprehensive about buying new VSL products since becoming aware of this issue. VSL has the worst licensing policy of any software company I have ever dealt with. I've guarded my keys with my life, but if anything did ever happen to them and I had to deal with this policy, I think I'd feel a bit insulted as a long term VSL customer, especially considering the significant financial investment required to buy the library over the years. I understand that piracy needs to be prevented, but the VSL license policy just seems to be punishing the hard working, honest musos that pay for their tools.

+1

I also invested al lot of my few Money in VSL-Products and really like them. I have 2 Computers, one at Home, the other at our Studio. I bought two Licenses of Cubase and Halion because I often forgot my Dongle and was afraid of damaging it by often plugin it in and out. But I won't buy two Licenses of all that VSL Stuff. Other Companys have much better Solutions against Piracy which allow you use their Software on 2 or even 3 Computers and switch the Licenses onlini or via Software!!. "VSL has the worst licensing policy of any software company I have ever dealt with" - Yes thats true and thats because I decidet to buy no more VSL-Products. And I know I'm not the only one... And it makes my sad....  )-:

@daerp said:

I have seen so many strategies to combat software piracy by various companies over the years. Nothing even comes close to the - in my opinion deeply flawed - VSL strategy.

But if it's "flawed" that would imply that elicenser has been cracked right?  In other words, pirates have broken the codes and are selling them all over the Internet. AFAIK this is not the case.  So to me that would be A flawLESS strategy.  Now it may cost VSL some customers but it must be only a negligible amount because they are still using the same system.

As far as Insurance is concerned here's my experience:

I too had a hard time finding anybody who would insure the licenses on a little piece of plastic.  The problem is they have a hard time trying to determine the risk involved when insuring software licenses contained on a USB dongle. Where is this dongle stored? In a locked box? Is the humidity high there? Will a power surge have any affect on key? etc. 

Every company I went to wanted to know the same thing: Are you a professional musician who needs these software products in order to maintain your livelihood?  Or are you just a hobbyist?

Oddly enough it was my homeowner's insurance who finally gave me a limited policy.  They already gave me small business insurance to cover the gear in my studio so basically the software was just deemed part of my studio gear so I just increased the value of my gear.  If the key leaves my studio, I'm screwed.  If somebody broke into my studio and stole just the key, leaving the $3,000 system its attached to, I'm screwed.  If the key is beyond the warranty period offered by VSL, I'm screwed.  Otherwise it's covered.

If you are a hobbyist, you will have a harder time with insurance.

@daerp said:

why should a hobbyist be seen as needing or deserving less protection than the active professional? I know you were just speculating that a hobbyist would have a harder time getting insurance than me or you, but I am steadfast in defending the amateur (not in the literal sense) against any discrimination of this sort.

.

Actually, that wasn't speculation.  I was told that a "hobbyist," and that was the word they used, wouldn't take as much care of the key as a professional whose livelihood depended on the licenses the key contained.  Now you may think that's a bunch of crap and I would have to agree but there was a time when car insurance companies in the United States used to charge more for red colored cars than any other color because they thought that anybody who wanted a red car was surely a wild risk taker, thus more of a liability.  Of course today this practice is illegal.

As I said in my last post, insurance companies are just having a hard time trying to assess the risk factor involved. Anything else, cars, homes, jewelry, etc. they just plug into their computer models which do the assessing for them and come out with a premium.

To give you an idea of just how completely clueless insurance brokers are in this arena I remember a conversation I was having with one while shopping for insurance for my key years ago in which the broker told me she would have to talk to VSL to find out exactly why they warranty the key for only two years.  When I told her VSL was based in Vienna, Austria she told me she would have to contact their European office.  A week went by before I finally wrote her back for a resolution.  She said, "I'm sorry but it would appear that nobody in our European office speaks Austrian only German😛😕😛😕"

So feeling like a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest I just gave up and asked Allstate which is my home owners insurance.

Perhaps it sounds like a joke for many insurance companies to insure software....
I struggled hard with the decision to sell my VSL Licenses to get rid of my Dongle nightmares and to buy from a more custumer friendly company. But it may be hard to find a buyer...

(Because: "To find a buyer, these are the rules:

1. The buyer must be found privately and the products must not be advertised in the VSL forum.
2. Auction platform like eBay are not allowed.  ")

You should be able to find a buyer on KVR audio or on vi-control. Just be aware that some other sample developers don't allow resales. You might want to factor that in for future buying decisions. In that regard VSL is on the customer friendlier site.

If your elicenser key is under warranty you won't have to pay the 20€ per license to restore them. So yes, buying a new key every two years spares you these costs in case of dongle failure. It doesn't help you if the dongle is stolen or lost, though. In these cases you'll have to rebuy the libraries at 50% of their list price.

Thanks a lot Dominique. 
Yep, obviously It was pretty clear to me it can't help in case the dongle in stolen or lost. But I'm seriusly thinking to purchase a new elicenser. This one I have is from my first Cubase 6, that means like 2011!

Good morning, 

I am really hoping someone at Vienna is replying to this: I discovered by chance this thread and I'm literally horrified but, before jumping to conclusions and make decicions I want to be sure of what I read here:

Any licence for any Vienna product is ONLY existing/valid inside the usb licencer that I have (I own the whole Special Edition and VEP5). If it deteriorates (yes, this happens) or is stolen/lost, broken or whatever AM I LOOSING ALL OF MY PRODUCTS? By the way, is this legal at all?

I mean, there are objective proofs of every one one of these purchases, like regular receipts and of course, registered bank transactions. 

I am understanding that even with these evidences if, let's say, a cup of coffee falls on my key on my table or it falls while I'm moving from one city to another (that happens 2 times a week) I am literally loosing the core of my library in the middle of projects deadlines?

I'm really hoping I'm wrong and I'll get an answer from someone from Vienna.

best regards,

Matteo Nahum

media composer, Valencia

ps. no one walks with 1000 buck in the wallet, guess why...

Hello Matteo, 

This is the current situation with eLicenser: 

Generally, the most valuable part of our products is the license which is stored on the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. With our copy protection partner eLicenser (owned by Steinberg / Yamaha), we don't have access to the licenses on the keys of our users, so we're not able to restore and/or transfer any lost or stolen license to a new key. Also, it's technically not possible to disable the licenses or the key via remote. This means that whoever steals or finds a key can use the contained license without any restrictions, if he also has access to the samples, and software, e.g., from a friend.

Users who lost the key (or whose key has been stolen) will have to purchase a new license, and of course a new key. What we can offer uninsured users to meet them halfway in this situation is a replacement license at the reduced price of 50% of the full price of the licensed product(s).
Every user is responsible for his keys and licenses himself, we're not obliged to replace any lost or stolen keys at all, like e.g. lost or stolen jewelry wouldn't be replaced unless it's insured. That's why we recommend to insure all products you licensed.

In case a ViennaKey is damaged, users have to send it to our office in Vienna (American users: to the office of our distributor ILIO based in California) to enable us to take a look at the kind of the damage.
If the damage on the ViennaKey shows signs of external force, he will of course have to pay for the new ViennaKey, and a handling fee for the new licenses (EUR 20 per contained license, minimum fee EUR 30). If a ViennaKey is registered to a user account, it's a lot easier for us to find out which licenses were stored on the Key.
If the ViennaKey breaks within the warranty period (two years) without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license free of charge if he can verify the warranty period by sending us the invoice of the purchase of the ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. That's why we recommend to purchase a new key every two years and to keep the invoice at a safe place.

The quickest and easiest temporary solution in a case like this is to buy a new ViennaKey or other eLicenser USB Key. After registration of the new key, we can send you a demo license which enables you to bridge at least some time (48 hours) until the order of the replacement license is processed, which usually takes 1-3 business days once we’ve received the broken key. Of course it's not a bad idea to have a spare key in your studio, to ensure that you have no downtime at all in the event of a lost or broken key.

Best, 
Paul