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  4. Is there any way to get this particular sound using the Vienna Imperial?

  • Is there any way to get this particular sound using the Vienna Imperial?

    J
    J

    Hello! I bought the Vienna Imperial recently, after listening to the trailer, reading alot of reviews, all which were very positive, reading on various forums about it.. Everyone says it's great, it's phenomenal and there's nothing quite like it, it's like a real piano .etc..

    I feel kind of stupid because after purchasing such an expensive product I haven't quite been able to get the results I was hoping for. I'm trying to replicate the piano sound found in this video (which by the way, was made with a library that only costs like a third as much)..

    --> 

    <--

    Now, as may be evident, I am in no way an expert in mixing/mastering. I've been trying to twist and drag the different sliders and the EQ window that came with the library and while I'm perhaps illuding myself that I've made some advancements I feel as there's still quite a way to go. I came moderately close to reaching that sound when I added some cathedral convolution reverb (as a second track) from altiverb (another expensive program I own which I yet only have quite basic knowledge of..)

    It looked something like this:

    Track 1 -- Vienna Imperial -- No reverb -- high volume

    Track 2 -- Vienna Imperial -- Altiverb Convolution Reverb -- lower volume

    And then I played those two tracks simultaneously...

    I notice people often speak of ''compression'' which is something I haven't touched upon yet. Also, I have no external sound card if that would matter in any way.


    I would really appreciate any help regarding this. It would be a shame to buy such an expensive library and then not be happy with the result.

     

    Thank you very much!
  • J
    J
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    @Joesson said:

    I notice people often speak of ''compression'' which is something I haven't touched upon yet. Also, I have no external sound card if that would matter in any way.

     

    Yes. It could matter a great deal.  Unfortunately, I'm on a computer where I can't hear your example so I'm not sure if your sound card is the culprit but buying a VSL instrument and not having an appropriate soundcard is like buying a brand new Ferrari and parking it in the middle of the Mongolian Desert where the nearest gas station is over a thousand miles away.

    A word about compression.  Compression is fine if you know how to use it but, generally, it levels out your dynamics (softens the loud, hardens the soft) which may not be ideal for an instrument which relies heavily on dynamics.   
  • J
    J

    Thank you for the reply!

    After I read your reply I went to the local music store and had a short conversation about 
    the importance and function of an external sound card. I decided to not purchase anything because I want to read
    up some more about it first.

    Also, I find it unlikely that the difference in sound between the youtube clip I linked and what I manage to get out from the vienna imperial is due to a lack of a sound card as that wouldn't affect the quality of the actual sound file. From what I understand an external sound card merely enhances the quality of the sound coming directly from your speakers.
  • J
    J

    An audio interface won't, and by all means, shouldn't, change the sound characteristics of your instruments.

    Your issue here is that the out-of-the box sound of the Vienna Imperial, and the instrument in the video you linked, are almost diametrically opposed. Vienna Imperial is an excessively detailed virtual recreation of a Bösendorfer grand piano that strives to sound as authentic and true to form as possible.

    The piano is your example piece on the other hand is an example of a heavily processed, "cinematic" moody sound - an entirely different aesthetic ideal. If you listen closely to the sound - it's not only drenched in reverb; there is even a delay effect and a touch of chorus on there. It's also decisively EQed, mainly the top end, to achieve this very soft, not at all crystalline, less percussive sound. There's likely also some compression going on to help the notes sustain.

    The Vienna Imperial might be somewhat of an odd choice for this kind of sound, but there's certainly a lot that can be done to achieve something in that vein. Generally, you should not go for a close or player perspective, but a distant or ambient position. Don't skimp on the reverb - it would probably be a good idea to use not only a convolution reverb for the general ambience, but also an instance of a nice, shimmery algorithmic plugin on top of that for the lengthy reverb tail. Experiment with reducing the high range of the instrument - beginning at 6000 Hz and higher - and look for the region that you can reduce to achieve a very soft and round sound that appears slightly damped and not as brilliant as the piano would sound by itself. Try setting up chorus and delay send effects and experimenting with them. Careful with the amount of delay - shouldn't be immediately perceivable as a delay effect. Start with a rather gentre rate on the chorus - just about enough so that the sound starts to "swim" a little.
  • J
    J

    @JimmyHellfire

    It's always a pleasure reading your well-educated, detailed replies. As you may remember you also helped me not long ago on how to create a more cinematic-sounding string sound. I followed up on that topic earlier today and the amount of information you cram into your answers is rather remarkable. 

    I will come back and give you an actual on-topic reply once I have digested and executed the advice you have given me. 

    Also, I'm not too familiar with chorus. If I remember correctly you create a slightly distorted copy of your current sound. I'll hopefully find my way around!
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @Joesson said:

    @JimmyHellfire

    It's always a pleasure reading your well-educated, detailed replies. [...]

    +1!!!

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • J
    J
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    last edited

    Jeez. Now I feel like a verbose, babbling know-it-all! 😳😃
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    No, seriously. Thanks for many, many well-put and helpful answers in our forums. * two thumbs up*
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • N
    N

    I will certainly agree! Jimmy's clear and detailed answers have certainly helped me too with my projects!

    @Joesson

    I also own the Imperial, and initially, I had the same questions as you about it. One thing I learned, is when playing notes with lower velocity, it achieves a more desired sound for me. Even if I have a midi file, I find myself reducing the velocity to achieve a more realistic sound. In addition, whichever reverb you use, the dry/wet ratio is also important.

    I put together a quick demo using the Imperial and MIR Pro using their latest Pernegg venue of the the same piece you like from the link you posted (I found the same midi on the web) and I had to adjust the velocities. It's not perfect, but you'll get the idea. I also use some compression, EQing, and harmonic distortion. As Jimmy said, the right effects can make a difference in achieving this type of sound.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Gundam-Seed-Destiny-Kimi-to-Boku-Todokanu-Omoi.mp3
  • J
    J

    @nektarios

    Thank you for taking your time putting together that demo!

    I agree with you that reducing velocities can sometimes result in a more desireable and perhaps modest sound. Yes, balancing the reverb is also important. It can quite easily get overwhelming.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Since my last post I've quite exhausted myself adjusting different sliders and knobs pertaining to everything between convolution and algorithmic reverbs to EQ levels and chorus settings. What I've ended up with is certainly something quite closer than I've managed before. Still I'm not quite satisfied with the result yet and I'm sure there are more adjustments and fine-tuning that could be done.

    Below I've attatched some images that illustrate the things I have done.

     

    Instruments Overview

    This picture shows the two Vienna Imperial instances I used in the creation of this piano sound.
    I used two seperate instances because I find the reverb easier to manage this way. I can easily seperate the wet part of the piano from the more dry part and edit them individually.

    Imperial 1 Interface

    This picture illustrates my choice of settings for the ''dry'' instance of the instrument.
    As you may notice though, dry isn't really the right choice of word since I've chosen to include the algorithmic reverb in this instance of the instrument.

    Imperial 1 Chorus

    This is the chorus settings, native to Logic Pro. I chose to include them in the ''dry'' instance of the Imperial.
    I didn't really take my time listening to what distinguishes the different settings such as ''intensity'' and ''rate'',
    but I ended up with something that was noticable but not overwhelming. And it did add some of this ''ethereal'' feeling to the sound if you wish.

    Imperial 1 EQ

    This is the EQ settings I chose for the ''dry'' part of the piano sound.
    I chose to reduce the value between 100-200 because I found the sound to be a bit muddy and
    reducing the value around that range gave the sound more clarity.

    Imperial 2 Interface

    This is the ''wet'' part of this instrument, which, ironically, has reverb turned off.
    It makes use of a convolution reverb plugin which I'll cover in the next picture.

    Imperial 2 Convolution Reverb

    This is a beautiful cathedral which makes for my convolution reverb.
    I tried to keep the ''mix'' setting at a value which made the reverb powerful without making it overwhelming.

    Imperial 2 EQ

    This is the EQ settings for the ''wet'' piano instance.
    I found that while reducing the values around the 100-200 range made the sound more clear, adding to those values, unsurprisingly, made it muddier, or in this case, mellower. I changed that particular level to get that ''warmth'' that you can hear when the low-frequency keys are pressed on the piano in the youtube-video I linked.
    It also helped reduce that ''hammering'' sound that the Vienna Imperial has by default.

    I reduced the high-end values in the EQ settings, as JimmieHellfire suggested, for quite the same reasons.
    I wanted to reduce the clarity of the sound in order to emphasize that sweeping, mellow warmth that I want to surround the clear sound in the ''dry'' instance of the Imperial.

    Below I have also included two sound files that demonstrate the Vienna Imperial sound with and without my edits.

     

     

    Now that you have listened to the sound and looked at the images I posted, what else do you think I can do to come closer to the sound in the youtube video? I've been going forth and back between the midi sensitivites for the two instruments to find out what sounds best and closest to the piano sound in the youtube video but I haven't yet came to a final conclusion. In the pictures  below are what I thought sounded best the last time I fiddled with that setting.

    Once again, thanks alot! Any help is much appreciated!

    Image

    Image

    Image

    Image

    Image
  • J
    J

    I mistakenly double-posted. How do I delete this? If I can't someone who can please do it for me.
  • J
    J

    I couldn't add more files to my last post so I'm adding remaining ones here.

    Post Scriptum: I noticed I'm hammering on some of the piano keys heard in the files below. let this serve as a headphone warning.

    Image

    Image
  • N
    N

     

    I noticed my example had the wrong piano in the second channel. I replaced it with the correct version:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Gundam-Seed-Destiny-Kimi-to-Boku-Todokanu-Omoi.mp3

    I think, for myself, I first try and get the best sound I can with just the reverb and EQ and then try adding effects -- otherwise, you'll go crazy.
  • N
    N

     

    @Joesson,

    Here's an example where I don't use ANY reverb. I am actually using a DELAY affect but I made it behave like a reverb.

    So below you get just Imperial, the delay effect Replika (which costs $49 from Native Instruments), EQ, compression, and a bit of harmonic distortion. NO reverb... I was actually shocked!

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Gundam-Seed-Destiny-Kimi-to-Boku-Todokanu-Omoi%20-%20REPLIKA.mp3
  • J
    J
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    @nektarios

    I listened to the additional examples you posted.

    Unlike the version you posted where an actual reverb was used, the one using only a delay
    seems to have a less obvious, more shimmering kind of tail to it. It's beautiul and a technique that
    would be interesting to experiment with imo.

    In terms of mimicking the sound present in the youtube video, any of the examples either of us
    have posted so far haven't really been quite on point because they lack the ''round'' and ''saturated''
    depth present in the piano sound in the video.



    The link I posted above directs to a part of the video where some lower frequency keys are pressed.
    It's in these that this round rich sound can best be heard. It doesn't have that percussive element, just that vast depth if you know what I mean.

    I experimented some more yesterday night, trying to reduce that percussive feel without sacraficing clarity.
    alas, I ended up sacraficing the clarity anyway and it became a flood of reverb. Still, technically I guess it was
    closer to the sound in the video. I will post an MP3 of the updated version once I have tweaked with it some more.

    Man, this whole project feels like a sacrilegious process. Taking a pristinely recorded Bösendorfer piano and
    turning it into a run-of-the-mill special effects cluster..

    PS: I also experimented with adding a delay as JimmieHellfire initially suggested and I found that it did bring me a step closer to the desired result.
  • N
    N

    @Joesson

    I know what you mean. Getting this type of sound is pretty tough. Since my music will dominantly feature pianos, I also want to learn on how to achieve a sound like this. Here is another attempt, using a different reverb (ArtsAcoustic), although in my case, I'd like to know how to achieve this with MIR Pro.

    I also added excitement which may be overdone.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Gundam-Seed-Destiny-Kimi-to-Boku-Todokanu-Omoi%20-%20ArtsAcoustic%20Reverb.mp3
  • J
    J

    @nektarios

    I contacted the guy who posted that youtube video recently about how he managed to create that particular piano sound. Yesterday I received a reply, and apparently, the only thing he used besides 8Dio's 1990 Grand Studio Piano, was some Space Design reverb native to Logic Pro..

    Perhaps, after all, the most sensible option for achieving a sound like the one in the video is to purchase 
    a piano instrument that's intended for it.

    Regardless, I bought an external sound card yesterday and I'm happy with the result.
    The Vienna Imperial sounds quite marvellous, especially as I have learned how to use it a bit better now,
    in the way it is perhaps meant to be used. Without an orchestra of special effects.

    Anyway, thanks very much for the help everyone.
    I will keep coming back to the thread for further discussion, provided there's any interest for that.
  • N
    N

     

    @Joesson

    Wow, thanks for sharing this info. My gut feeling was correct, which was, they probably used minimum effects and the right reverb is half the battle. Also, looking at this piano product, I can see there is a fair amount of sound engineering that it went through. For example, choice of microphones etc. I know the Imperial can come close to this sound,  and I'd love to know how to achieve this using MIR Pro as my reverb (although MIR Pro is not a really reverb according to VSL). Currently, even though I have a pleasing sound on the higher notes, my lower notes sound muffled.