Questions about using MIR pro and achieving good sound quality

[agitato]

Hi

I am very intrigued by MIRx and MIR pro and presently testing their demo versions along with the Solo strings.

Much to my surprise, I notice that the violin tone changes signficantly (to the worse) when I use either the MIRx or the MIR pro with any of their "concert halls", as compared to the defaulr Algo reverb or no reverb at all..

Could the fancy convolution reverb be changing the tone of the violin? It should not be! 

I would rather have a good violin playing in any hall whatsover rather than a synthy violin playing in Mozartall ! 

On the same note, I was wondering if any processing was done to the solo strings. Although the VE programming and handling of the performance patches is just super fantastic, I am frankly disapppointed with the tone of the strings.

With 50Gb sample size I would expect te violin tone to be very pure and original. Why is the sound poorer. I am sure its not my speakers since I do hear audio recordings of real instruments and they sound realistic.

Any thoughts appreciated,

[DG]

All rooms have a sound, and therefore any convolution reverb will change the sound of an instrument. Whether or not you like it is a batter of taste.

 

On the matter of sound quality, I think that there is nothing wrong with the VSL recordings. Where most people go wrong is the sequencing and mixing. String instruments are very strange beasts, and the sequencing of music for solo strings is one of the biggest challenges that one can face with samples. I would suggest that you listen to some of the demos done by people who are maybe more familiar with the sounds and software than you are, and make your Judgement from those. If you still don't like the sound, then maybe VSL Solo Strings is not the best fit for you.

 

 

DG

[Dietz]

Well, the solution is easy: If you don't like the sound you get from MIR Pro or MIRx, don't use it! 😉 People seem to either love or hate MIR, depending on their background and taste, and their willingness to deal with new approaches to the spatialisation of virtual instruments. (Sidenote: MIR is _not_ just another reverb, it's all about space, position and direction.)

But before you quit, try to make sure that you didn't miss the best parts of it. Did you find the time to watch the video tutorials or flip through MIR Pro's manuals?

-> https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/Vienna_MIR_PRO#!Video_Demos

-> MIR Pro Manual

-> MIR Pro Plug-In Manual Addendum

-> "Think MIR!" (Concepts and Technical Background)

-> MIRx Add-on for Vienna Instruments - Manual

-> MIRx Mode in MIR Pro - Manual Addendum

... oh, and just for fun, a short excerpt of some tests we performed about 10 years ago:

-> Reality vs. Virtuality

Kind regards,

[agitato]

Thanks Dietz and DG for your suggestions, I am a newbie to VSL and will certainly look into the documentation fo MIR. I am still working my way around.

While I do understand that instrument sounds depend on the stage and make (e.g., stradivari vs guarneri ) the fundamental timbre should be within a certain range for any violin in any stage. That is what I was expecting out of VSL...a clear timbre 'out of the box' without the need for any digital tweaking. But it seems that the timbre is somewhat harsh with VSL and also MIRx and MIR pro seem to my ears to change the timbre, at least for some notes.

Anyways I uploaded two versions of a string quartet Iam working on, one with Algo reverb and the other with Mozartsall, conductor position. You can probably guess which one is which,

https://soundcloud.com/ankumar333/stringq2b-a

https://soundcloud.com/ankumar333/stringq2b-b

I hope someone can give me feedback on the sound qualty and if this is expected out of the solo strings, and if it can be improved.

All this aside, I am thoroughly enjoying the the masterful programming of VSL and their Sibelius integration.

EDIT...just wanted to reiterate that in making this recording I did not do any post processing...it is played straight out of Sibelius notation. I did not touch a single controller on the MIDI keybord. So I REALLY appreciate VSL providing outstanding integration with Sibelius (rather than leaving it to 3rd party like soundsetproject etc.,).

Anand

[GoranTch]

Hi Anand,

could you provide a link with downloadable .wav files of these (in your internal sequencer resolution)?

[agitato]

Hi Goran

Sure. I cannot access to my home computer now but will send you the links tonight (US time).

Thanks

Anand

[agitato]

I have uploaded them to dropbox, Also added a MIRx version. Let me know if you are not able to get the wave files.

These are wave files generated from the Sibelius. (I did notice that these wave files  sound slightly poorer in quality compared to when played directly within Sibelius using VE, but that is another puzzle I need to solve,)

Thank you for any input.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7v0hxzeosim50gc/stringq2b_C.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/39oujrtr7ssqbkc/stringq2b_B.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w09drifsjhrpap7/stringq2b_A.wav?dl=0

[GoranTch]

Just got to listen to your examples, and the biggest difference in colour seems to me to be between the example C vs A and B (added emphasis on the middle/higher "ssssss" region, probably around or above 10 kHz - A & B are much "softer" there). A & B are different in colour as well, but the difference sounds to me like the difference in the way the rooms amplify different parts of the frequency spectrum (that is, "room response" coloration) - strongly noticable in the emphasized lower (around 100 Hz) and middle (between 500 Hz and 1 kHz) areas of example B. (Especially the very "reverberant" amplification of the 100 Hz area seems to point to a room response, not to a change in the frequency content of the dry signal.)

BTW, a very promising string quartet exercise - you have a strong feeling for "non-trivial" formal development and harmony deployment (though still a bit "uncontrolled", at least for my ears and taste...). I would say, you just continue developing and polishing your compositional skills in this direction 👍

...and, very good performance shaping work as well..

[agitato]

Thank you for listening and the comments.

I particularly appreciate your point about "uncontrolled" harmony deployment. I am not very strong with handling harmony yet and its very good to confirm that from a trained year.

Regarding the color, (firstly i note that C was using MIRx, B was MIRpro with Mozartsaal conductor position and A with just Algo.)

While the differences might be because of the rooms, I feel that the sustain and detache patches of the solo strings have an artificial feel at some points. If I may request you do one more quick listen, I uploaded a fuller version of that piece. The problem occurs for instance around 0:55 - 1:03 seconds, where I use the detache, and it sounds a bit synthy.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m5ube7n9uepfeef/stringq2_MIRPRO.wav?dl=0

https://soundcloud.com/ankumar333/stringq2-mirpro/s-7NEiL#t=0:55

It feels like some frequency stretching is going on. I would appreciate your opnion on if this is what is expected. I just want to make sure I am not doing something wrong, I expected these samples to sound good 'out of the box' (much the same way as any cometently recorded live violin piece will sound on a CD).

Regarding performance, I am quite amazed by how well VI works with sibelius. I didnt  tweak a single controller for this, its all played out of Sibelius notation. thanks to cool programming by VSL.

Best Regards

Anand

@goran_tsch said:

Just got to listen to your examples, and the biggest difference in colour seems to me to be between the example C vs A and B (added emphasis on the middle/higher "ssssss" region, probably around or above 10 kHz - A & B are much "softer" there). A & B are different in colour as well, but the difference sounds to me like the difference in the way the rooms amplify different parts of the frequency spectrum (that is, "room response" coloration) - strongly noticable in the emphasized lower (around 100 Hz) and middle (between 500 Hz and 1 kHz) areas of example B. (Especially the very "reverberant" amplification of the 100 Hz area seems to point to a room response, not to a change in the frequency content of the dry signal.)

BTW, a very promising string quartet exercise - you have a strong feeling for "non-trivial" formal development and harmony deployment (though still a bit "uncontrolled", at least for my ears and taste...). I would say, you just continue developing and polishing your compositional skills in this direction 👍

...and, very good performance shaping work as well..

[nektarios]

Love your example.

I am experiencing similar "problem" and find myself trying to correct certain frequencies in the wet signal of MIR PRO.

Dietz, I love MIR PRO, but I think this needs to be fixed in future versions. This "coloration" needs to be reduced which should make a big difference.

[Beat Kaufmann]

@agitato said:

....The problem occurs for instance around 0:55 - 1:03 seconds, where I use the detache, and it sounds a bit synthy.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m5ube7n9uepfeef/stringq2_MIRPRO.wav?dl=0

It feels like some frequency stretching is going on...

Hello agitato

You obviously produce the music via Sibelius. A problem for composers who are using samples is, that they compose: here sfz, there sustain and here staccato... and then at first they often are disappointed about the result. Why?

One thing is that you sometimes should change the articulation from note to note even if nothing is to change seen from the musically point of view. Also tempo changes, the velocity changes are sometimes necessary for getting a natural sounding result. Furter, with samples you should not select the articulation by its name but by its sound for getting the just mentioned natural sounding result. Sometimes it is very OK to start a section of notes with a diminuendo (because of the nice bow in the volume at the beginnning) and then change to legato.... Even if it finally sounds great it would look stupid in the score to start with "dim"...

The long and the short of it: If you set great store by a natural and realistic sound I recommend to write your notes with Sibelius but to play them with a DAW because you can change every parameter note by note, so that you get the sound you really have in your mind.

As a little example:

How would you organize just the different velocities between each 16th in Sibelius?

Another short example: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vi-tips--tricks-4/index.php (Nr 34) It shows the difference between a really simple! playback of a notation program and the same but more treated version - out of a DAW.

... So your "détaché-stretching-part" can be solved by changing articulations between each note. Try to find the best sounding combination can take quite a lot of time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

About Convolution Reverbs

Most of those revebs are coming with a lot of different room prints of different concert halls. Altiverb is famous for hundreds of such roomprints (Impulse Responses = IRs). And because all of these rooms have their own sound also the music (played through it)  has the sound of the certain selected room. There is nothing wrong. As Dietz mentioned above you either like those "colours" or not or you search one which has not so much colours. VSL offers in general a good pool of venues which are at least not coloured by capturing those IRs.

Here is a solution (Nr. 36) how you can reduce the typical room modes when you are using a "common" Convolution Reverb of VSL (not MIRx / MIRPro).

 

All the best and a lot of sucess with your samples

Beat

[nektarios]

 

This needs to be fixed. Period. If the above piece was played live at the same venue, I highly doubt we would be complaining about how it sounds... Some incorrect assumptions have been made which need to be looked at again. I want to see MIR PRO get better, and I won't accept as an answer "Deal with it or change software". I am sorry.

[nektarios]

Also, you may need to push the dry ratio higher. I do this more with solo strings especially.

[agitato]

Deat Beat,

Thank you for the detailed response. I will listen to your examples.

I think my point was not clear. I am not at all disappointed with the handling of note-by-note articulation changes by vienna. In fact I think Vienna instruments does a great job of handling it smoothly. While I dont disagree that the performance can be made more realistic with further tweaking in a DAW, I find that notating these changes directly on the score is a quick way to get me almost there. I used to use Sonar 8, and did not enjoy using key switches and so on. With Sibelius, notes, dynamics, articulations and tempo are all in one place and is also playable by a real muscians.

And, there is so much consistency in tone across the vienna samples, that allows the midi performance to sound a lot like a real performance. 

But, my problem rather is with some of the individual notes in the samples themselves, particularly the sustain and detache. While detache sounds realistic interms of note by note changes, the individual notes are sometimes synthy, as in my example. It puzzles me as to how this happened. Vienna did a very careful job of recording these samples. I am wondering if maybe the timbre was changed during processing or programming these notes for playability?

Anand

[agitato]

@nektarios said:

If the above piece was played live at the same venue, I highly doubt we would be complaining about how it sounds...

exactly my point...no professionally played violin will sound bad in any concert hall, or even in a garage. There will be a basic quality or timbre.

on the other hand a bad synthy timbre cannot sound good in any concert hall.

[agitato]

I just wanted to clarify the reason for my post.

I am new to Vienna SL and am very excited about this. I started with the solo strings and would liek the whole library at some point. The clips that I uploaded are the best I have been able to achieve compared with any other software I have used.

The reason for my post is to with some hope that the one thing I find problematic, i.e., quality of some of the samples, can be fixed. This would make this library just even more wonderful.

Thanks.

[nektarios]

@agitato said:

I just wanted to clarify the reason for my post.

I am new to Vienna SL and am very excited about this. I started with the solo strings and would liek the whole library at some point. The clips that I uploaded are the best I have been able to achieve compared with any other software I have used.

The reason for my post is to with some hope that the one thing I find problematic, i.e., quality of some of the samples, can be fixed. This would make this library just even more wonderful.

Thanks.

I am with you on this. I want to see this already great product improved. The workflow of creating a new MIR PRO venue needs to be examined by VSL and evaluate what tweaks or workflow changes are needed to achieve this. 

[Beat Kaufmann]

@agitato said:

...The reason for my post is to with some hope that the one thing I find problematic, i.e., quality of some of the samples, can be fixed...

Hello again Anand

My post above was a bit "all-embracing". So I try it once more and an more focused on your upper point:

Maybe that some articulations (in your example 0:55-1:03) - and specially when they are played in a row - sound a bit synthy or what ever. Now, why don't you take another approach instead of the synthy sounding detache articulations. I always try the best sounding combinations what ever the name of the articulations are. In another situation that synthy detache has probably quite the right sound... Therefore my text about the DAW = easier for putting in unsusual articulations. BTW: Detache Articulations do have 3 layer levels as far as I know. Did you try to play them with the next higher level (louder?)

A further information: Library producers are faced with the dilemma that their samples should sound very! neutral but nevertheless and simultaneously musical. As soon as the balance tip to one side the certain sample will be recognized at any time when it's played... So improving samples for "a good sound in one certain situation" is the best idea.

But also:  Playing music with samples is making compromises at any time. You don't have a sad, warm, lovely, nice or shiny legato you have just legato. This is sometimes not easy for musisicians when the start with samples...

So: See your library as a pool of thousands of different tones (incl. all different layers of the samples). Choose just the one which sounds closest to your idea... you will find one without any improvement of VSL.  

Beat

[agitato]

Thanks Beat. I will try the different velocity layers, but this will affect the context of the piece.

But given I am very lazy, the beauty of this rendering was that I did not have to do anything and almost got a very good performance directly playing from Sibelius. While tweaking and compromise is common for any other sample libraries VSL, is far better and I was just wishing the sample quality will also be perfect.

I will try your other suggestions as well.

Best

Anand

[GoranTch]

@Another User said:

I expected these samples to sound good 'out of the box' (much the same way as any cometently recorded live violin piece will sound on a CD).

VSL doesn't work that way 😉 - what you get with VSL is first class "raw" material, but then you have to shape it into the final result yourself (and that both in the performance shaping and audio engineering departments). This has the great advantage of VSL libraries being compatible with as good as any production environment and sound/performance "aesthetics" (which no other library I have and use (EW Hollywood libraries, 8dio woodwinds, Cinematic Strings etc.) can claim). On the other hand, the learning curve is somewhat less steep, as you have to take care of every aspect of the production yourself,   

P.S. I'll be away until Monday, and won't be able to post until then.