Surround questions (Vienna Suite, plugins, Cubase, levels)

[matthieu.lechowski]

Hello,

I used to work with MIR Pro in Stereo, and now I need to work in surround (5.1) for movies. I have Cubase 7.5

1/ As far I understand, unfortunately I cannot use Vienna Suite plugins anymore, since they are stereo. Which surround plugins can I use ? I saw for example the Flux ones, are they good (and CPU efficient) ?  Vienna Mir Pro Equalizer is in surround, but not easy for me (no vizualization of the signal, if at least I use it correctly...)

2/ Is a surround version of Vienna Suite planned in the future ?

3/ Are they tricks to use stereo plugins on 5.1 channels ? (in VE Pro and/or in Cubase)

4/ Cubase Pro 8 seems to have new surround plugins (Compressor, Limiter...), but I did not see any precise information on Steinberg site or google. Is it true ? Are they good ? But it does not solve my problem, as I need surround EQ and compressor in VE Pro...

5/ I prefer to build/mix my music in stereo, since I always need stereo mixes and since surround requires more CPU and/or memory (my PC is on its knees : I planned to buy VI Pro and SSD in order to reduce the RAM, but for CPU I can not do anything I believe...). Converting the project from stereo to surround is well done in VE PRO (with the function "Convert Project Channel Configuration"), but in Cubase it's a pain : as I have to delete my VE Pro Stereo instance, all midi ports connections are lost, and I have to relink all (for my personal conveniance, I'm using 22 Midi ports to dispatch the whole orchestra). Have you a trick to avoid this step ?

6/ Is it normal that the Channels L and R have more power than the C, LFE, SL and SR ones ? (with "5.1 Triple-8 Spaced DEFAULT" on primary, and "5.1 115° (Rears only)" on secondary) I think it could be, in order to have a subtle spacing of the sound, with a dominant stereo feeling, but I would like to be sure.

Sorry for all these questions. Thanks !

Matthieu

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hi

First of all you should know from your film producer what he is expecting. As a basic layout of all the tracks you can take:

L/R  = Music

SL/SR = Effects

C = the text, the voices

LF (5.1) = Low Frequencies of the sound effects

I didn't produce realy big films more smaller productions. So the producers where not Steven Spielbergs as well. So I had a free hand to make the best of the sound. What I did was:

1. I mixed the music with a bit of delay and reverb to SL and SR

2. I also mixed a bit of the sound effects from SL/SR to the front L/R with some effects (delay etc.)

3. I used the LF channel also for mixing some subbass from the music into this channel.

4. In some cases I mixed the Center Channel to the SL/SR channels through some Room effects (Reverb). If the actors are speaking in a large hall it could be nice to have some roomextension into the back- (side) speakers.

So seeing this concept you will make out that you have two independent stereo tracks L/R and SL/SR no problem to use the Suite Effects. for the mono tracks C and LF it works as well.

REVerence or also MIR (as far as I know) can produce 5.1 Room.sounds but they are not really asked here. Nevertheless, because you have 6 output channels (5.1) you always can mix also the output signals of those Reverbs to the output.

A lot of the Cubase effects are 5.1 such as the limitters, some compressors, EQs etc.

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Some last remarks:

A) Keep in mind that the music and the effects always should be so loud that the voices can clearly stand over all the other sounds.

B) Keep in mind that the levels in the film business should be not as loud as possible as we know it from some music genres! Use the K20 Scale from Bob Katz where -20dB stands for loud situations (forte). The whole headroom above (+20dB) is for really loud things like explosions etc.

C) Forget to produce in Stereo and the to convert the result after that with a PlugIn (Anymix) into 5.1. You will obviously get a 5.1 file but this is not really spectacular. You just will have the very low frequencies in the LF channel, some mono components in C and some stereo information in the SL/SR channels. But thats far away from what you can get with the divided signals I mentioned above.  I use the Anymix of Isono myself which is one of the best PlugIns on the market. So I really know what I'm saying here.

D) Use the Surroundmixers in Cubase for mixing all the stereo and mono channels into the correct 5.1 output.

E) I higly recommend to produce such 5.1 projects with a 5.1 system.  So this beginns with an audio interface with 6 analog outputs and a 5.1 system. I use the Logitech Z906 (nice sound so far, low price). For mastering the tracks I use my main monitors because you either have stereo or mono tracks which can be nicely controlled with the main system separately.

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OK I didn't answer directly your questions but you got a lot of information which will clear up the situation as well - at least some points.

All the best

Beat

[matthieu.lechowski]

Thank you very much for all these informations. Indeed not directly my questions, but I will consider all these interesting things !

Like you I have not Spielberg in my clients, but as I am asked to produce 5.1 for broadcasting on theatres (short films) and having MIR, naturally I would like to try and produce 5.1 "natively" in MIR.

Yes I realized that some Cubase effects are able to work in 5.1, even if it's not explicitely written. And yes, I have the chance to have a 5.1 system to monitor (RME Hdsp9632 + extension of 4 analog outputs, and 5 Yamaha HS50M + 1 sub).

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hi Matthieu

Fine, you seem to have all the necessary hardware.

If you only have to produce music in 5.1 without effects and voices it is probably the best solution to use a room system which directly uses surround IRs such as obviously MIR and REVerence (Cubase) and others of cours...

This would be still a better solution than a converter.

Further you always are free to mix the stereo signal from L/R via a stereo reverb or/and delay to SL/SR. I would try this. There are fortunately no really rouls how loud you should do this. Do it with your ears and your well adjusted 5.1 system. Make sure as well that the "5.1 circle" is properly given. 5.1 is still a very open field - free for doing experiments. It counts the result.

You probably can cancel The Center Speaker for just the music and the LF-Channel I would use for the frequencies below 80 Hz of the music. This is possible without any converter. As mentioned above the 5.1 Mixer in Cubase can do a lot. Once you have opend stereo and 5.1 outputs you can easy handel each track with those mixers.

Best

Beat

BTW: I believe that REVerence only produces 4 Channels (L/R and SL/SR). No problem to get out the subbass from L/R.

[Dietz]

Hi Matthieu,

sorry for the slightly delayed reply.

@Another User said:

6/ Is it normal that the Channels L and R have more power than the C, LFE, SL and SR ones ? (with "5.1 Triple-8 Spaced DEFAULT" on primary, and "5.1 115° (Rears only)" on secondary) I think it could be, in order to have a subtle spacing of the sound, with a dominant stereo feeling, but I would like to be sure.

 

Yes! Under most circumstances, this will be the expected behaviour. There are cases when you want to have distinct signal sources from the back ("Circle" --- or rather "Circus Surround"! ;-D), but most of the time the surround format is used for an enhanced stage impression with a clear bias in the front speakers.

... that said it is worth noting that many modern scores are mixed in 4.0 rather than in 5.0 (or 5.1). The only "true" surround signal is the main microphone system from the orchestra recording(s). Everything else is mostly assigned to either the front or the rear L/R speakers, with little to no correlation between them.

***

Surround sound is an exciting topic in music production, but it's a vast area, too. I hope that I could shed some light on it! 😊

Kind regards,

[Dietz]

@Dietz said:

... that said it is worth noting that many modern scores are mixed in 4.0 rather than in 5.0 (or 5.1). The only "true" surround signal is the main microphone system from the orchestra recording(s). Everything else is mostly assigned to either the front or the rear L/R speakers, with little to no correlation between them.

... I should add that I don't like that too much. 😊 I love the sensation of being embraced by the sound from the sides, too.

[matthieu.lechowski]

Thank you very much for all these precise answers. I am relieved from some questions, and I have now more matter to think about !

And the Vienna Suite Surround project is a very good news ! I am not confident in sound engineering, so I like Vienna Suite for its intuitive, visual and pleasant UI and for its (Vienna oriented) presets which are a start to learn by myself.

Matthieu