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  3. What is your preferred DAW?
  • S
    S

    Well I have been using Logic for ages, but two years ago I started to look for a new DAW. There were several things I didn't like in Logic and still don't like. First there is the Piano Roll editor. Sometimes it looses focus and when you open it it's nowwhere near the timeline. Only one Controller lane at the time. Iterative Quantize is lacking and in Logic X the colors gone black. The mixer can't be designed to your own liking unless you create tracks for all channels. Obviously the lack of KS's management together with the limitted capabillity of the multiinstrument paradigm in conjunction with VEPro slaves on remote computers is really bad.

    One thing I think Logic is doing better than anyother DAW is dealing with latency. On my Mac it's still better than Cubase.

    So I tried Digital Performer 8, a really great app. but the whole concept was nevertheless to much for me. But the number of things you can customize is breathtaking.

    I also tried Studio One and also found it to be very good and intuitive, but I don't think it will ever come to work with my MC Control ;-(

    Then Pro Tools 11. It's very good and stable the midi-editor has some pretty nice features, that let's you select which part you want to work with, without leaving the editor, but it handles VI's (espically BFD3, which I use all the time) very bad.

    So back to Cubase 8. It works well with remote macs with VEPro, it has a great midi editor, it can be customized to a certain degree, and you can count on it to be updated.

    I think if you want to build a really huge template Cubase 8 or DP8 is the best alternatives.
  • civilization 3C
    civilization 3C

    Before I got going with VE Pro, the latency with Cubase on a Mac was just too much. I mean with virtual instruments. So I bought Logic and Digital Performer.

    A whole new window for each controller in Logic makes that a real no-go for virtual instruments; I use a single piano roll window set up to individually edit parts, all parts/event in one editor. I have quite a number of controller setups that correspond with how I deal with particular instruments or types of instruments. I do a lot of controller editing. So in terms of how I work with MIDI parts, there is no comparison really.

    Another thing is I hate guessing at tempo in order to begin, and making a choice and a grid that is static behind that. Cubase has warp time, which means I start by improvising freely with no grid or preconception to be concerned about. Then, according to the idea that happens, I start defining bars and the modus operandi is to drag one of the extant barlines (that I have had zero interest in, as a beginning) to where I want it.
    In the 'key editor' or piano roll, one can define every subdivision down to your Quantize selection as a tempo point.

    I remember back at Cubase SX2 a tutorial I'd found explaining this. It showed it done to an audio event, a popular rock tune. And it showed the resultant BPMs in flux. A very steady rock backbeat but the tempo breathed as does life. This was a gigantic eye-opener. Now, I have seen people that worked in Logic that can't be slave to the grid and they simply make music ignoring it. I was doing most things like that, but I have to say when I'm arranging, and today I'm arranging before I start, I want to have barlines and beat grid to make life simpler. But the grid follows my time, my sense of time.

    Then there are complex and subtle things I have internalized so I'm not _thinking_ while I improvise that I can investigate and explore having a solid pulse bases to work from. Tuplets/nested tuplets and crossing the bar; metrical modulations from this in the time of that previous pulse. The "tempo track" is a very convenient and brilliant interface. Logic's doesn't do this for me at all.

    But for VE Pro usage, Cubase has the VST3 so I have all the MIDI ports I like which means less instances obviously and no "Event Input" which IMO is a giant PITA.

     

    I don't have any actual downside things to say. I did; Cubase does not do Core Audio directly, there is a translation 'CoreAudio2 ASIO.bundle' which would seem to be the factor accounting for latency that's just too high. Right now I have a workflow with VE Pro where I can play in parts fairly reliably with 1024 in the buffer.
    A matter of defining record latency compensation. A bit tricky but it does more or less obviate the problem for me.
  • Steve SteeleS
    Steve SteeleS
    Digital Performer user here. Pros: Chunks (multiple sequences in one project that can all sync to one video). Very stable. OSX and Windows versions. Clean and well organized interface. Looks like a Mac program due to it's good use of GUI concepts. Feature set all around is very strong for film composers. But is a very strong audio DAW. Conductor track. Conductor track can be turned off in favor of tap tempo, external sync and other. Mulitple ways to do the same thing which allows a level of customized workflow that I haven't seen in another DAW. MIDI tracks are seperate from Instrument tracks (some see this as a negative, an old way of working that's never been fixed. But it's not. DP is always in multi-timbral mode). MIDI Device Groups (allows you to assign multiple MIDI tracks to an instrument track. Track Folders Track Grouping Recorded audio can be written to another drive. All MIDI CC editing is done in one lane and it's easy to hide CCs you don't need to see. Video syncing is extremely accurate and powerful. VEP has a MAS version that supports 48 MIDI ports. Offline bouncing works with MAS version of VEP!!! Markers can be ranked by importance. Find Tempo feature that helps you find a tempo that best matches a list of locked markers which helps when scoring to video when marking "hits". One click disabling of instrument and audio tracks to save CPU. Window Sets with assignable keystrokes. Measures can be adjusted to line up with waveform peaks or anything else. Video's audio can be bused to aux tracks and effects applied, or video's audio track can be imported and put into an audio track for analysis. The sequence tempo can be altered to match the imported audio track. Built in partial Vocalign program. Any MIDI CC can be edited and automated in CC lane. MIDI plugins. MIDI can be edited in Tracks, Sequnce, MIDI, Event List, notation, Drum and Quickscripe windows. Rewire support works both ways. Pre Gen mode (when plugins are bypassed, hidden behind windows or closed they pre render and take a load off the CPU). All keystrokes are customizable. Can use MAS, AU and VST plugins. Bouncing and Freezing - Offline bouncing, Track Freezing. Printing of effects or effects as inserts (destructive and non destructive). Vracks - Allows you to share all you're instrument tracks including VEP across all sequences. Vracks can be disabled with a single click. Mixer snapshots. Themes Unlimited Takes per track. No dongle. Can use on two computers. If added to a third, one gets disabled. Tracks can be moved and re-ordered in any window including the mixer. Looping, auto rewind, auto stop, auto punch in and overdub mode are easy to enable and use. Free 30 day unlimited demo Much much more (I'll add more later) Cons: 84 useful plugins, some are great, but not as many fancy plugins as other DAWs (I don't use built in plugins that much anyway). Expression Maps/Note Expressions would be welcome. The notation editor needs updating. It's sluggish and needs a facelift. Not as powerful as one would expect. If you want a "cute" DAW DP might seem like your father's DAW but several of the new themes give DP a modern look. Bottom Line: Everything in DP allows for multiple "takes". In other words, you can have multiple sequences, multiple takes, multiple mix scenes, multiple vracks, and all of your sequences can be brought into a macro sequencer called the song window, where sequences can be sequenced! Or they can be arranged into a playlist. All of this syncs with video (1080p, 1920 and 4k video support might be available now). In my opinion DP has more features than most other DAWs and has had them a long time now which makes DP a very stable program. Closest DAW to DP is probably Cubase, although there are some differences and I find DP easier on the eyes and more flexible. Good luck.
    Regards, Steve Steele https://www.stevesteele.com
  • E
    E

    I've owned many DAWs throughout the years starting with Cakewalk in the early 1990s. Currently, I'm using Logic Pro X and Digital Performer 8 (DP 8).  I have to agree with the above poster regarding DP 8 and its features and customability. I'm relatively new to DP 8 but the more I explore its capabilities, the more I enjoy using it. It is HIGHLY customized. Also, its ability to have multiple takes and multiple sequences (the two are distinct) per project, makes for a phenomenal film scoring tool.  Additionally, DP 8 generates its own streamers and punches which I have not found in other DAWs yet.  (I learned film composition over 33 years ago using a flatbed movieola. I learned how to make my own streamers and punches which are nice visual aides in hitting cues. Been happily using the streamers and punches generaged by DP 8 for my modest film scoring needs.)

    The problem that I have with DP 8 is that I that it chokes on my modest 55+ instrument orchestral templet.  It's fine when a small number of virtual instruments are being used. However, I have yet to figure out how to NOT make it choke for the larger orchestral templet (using a few different instrumental libraries housed within a couple of different sample players).

    Logic Pro X, on the other hand, handles the same (modest) 55+ instrument orchestral templet without issue. With the exception of the inevitable CPU spikes during keyswitching (but not fatally and not to 100% usage), the CPU meters in Logic Pro X show that all 16 threads (to my 8-core Mac Pro) are evenly used and hover around 15% to 20% usage. This confirms to what is a wonderfully stable system.

    I wish that I had the stability found with Logic Pro X and DP 8's features!!!

    Enter VEPro 5. . . 

    In a "master/slave" computers set-up, DP 8 is allowed to shine, thanks to the newest version VEPro 5! I let my aging yet trusty Early 2009 Mac Pro handle the instrumental libraries with VEPro 5/MIR Pro and let my younger and capable Late 2012 MacMini handle DP 8's sequencing and film composition strength.  I could not be happier!

    Edited to add: It is nice to read that people are enjoying Cubase. It seems that newer versions of Cubase are relatively stable. Good! Again, this is nice to read. I used to own an earlier version of Cubase duriing my PC days. That freakin' program gave me headaches, nightmares and ulcers. Cubase is what led me back to Logic (I still have the floppy disks to PC-based Logic when it was owned by eMagic) and into the world of Mac computers (which are just "OK").
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC
    last edited
    last edited

    @Edward Fiebke said:

     Also, its ability to have multiple takes and multiple sequences (the two are distinct) per project, makes for a phenomenal film scoring tool.  

    It is possible to handle multi takes since Logic 8 and it has been improved since

    •  

    • ▶ 13:35

      www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6UYiZe-Ro
      Jan 30, 2012 - Uploaded by totaltraining
      Personalizing Logic Professional Templates for Common Projects Multi-take Recording Audio Effects ...
       
  • E
    E
    last edited
    last edited

    Cyril - I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you're a Logic Pro fan! LOL! I am, too. Out of all of the DAWs owned, I've been using Logic Pro the longest. This does not mean that I aware of, or use, all of its functionalities. To be honest, I use the same few templets over and over and over again. Rarely do I explore it deeper, unfortunately. But it gets my modest projects done just fine. Logic Pro is rock solid for me. It has been for a while!

    I did not know about it ability for multi-takes.

    I will explore this further, now that you brought it to my (our) attention. Thank you.

    Still, DP 8 does a nice job too, especially when paired with VEPro 5 in a "master/slave" computer situation. I am not "dissing" Logic Pro when I say this. Being relatively new to DP 8, I've grown to appreciate its capabilities that I've learned about it so far. It really is a great tool for film composition. So is Logic Pro X, for that matter. (Disclaimer: Despite holding a degree in Film Composition, I am not a professional film scorer, making a living off this craft. Videography and film scoring to my own projects are important, time-consuming, hobbies of mine, though.) 

    I have both DAWs. . . both get used. I'm still a happy camper.

    Edited to add: Each DAW has their strengths and their weaknesses. Each DAW has their own "cheer-leaders" and their own "critics". The bottom line is this: If the DAW works for you, and you're happy, that is all that matters. 😉
  • D
    D

    For those interested in Logic Pro X, this set of tutorials is one of the best resources I've seen.

     
  • M
    M

    How well dose Cubase handle multiple takes on a MIDI track compared to DP?

     

    Michael
  • Steve SteeleS
    Steve SteeleS
    last edited
    last edited

    @mschmitt said:

    How well dose Cubase handle multiple takes on a MIDI track compared to DP? Michael
    And as an extension of that question, does Cubase allow tracks that are grouped together (midi or audio) to all switch takes together when one of the grouped tracks is switched to another take. And does Cubase give the option to always keep takes together? Can you suspend groups and hence takes? I'm curious too. DP takes the takes concept pretty far.
    Regards, Steve Steele https://www.stevesteele.com
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC

    Cubase 8 on trial is out now

    At the moment I do not have time to test Cubase 8

    Has any Logic X user moved or tested it ?

    What are your comments ?
  • civilization 3C
    civilization 3C

    Cubase handling of 'takes' pretty extensive, eg:

     

     

    Recording MIDI in cycle mode

    When you record MIDI in cycle mode, the result depends on which Cycle Record mode is selected on the Transport panel:

    Cycle Record mode: Mix (MIDI)

    For each completed lap, everything you record is added to what was previously recorded in the same part. This is use- ful for building up rhythm patterns, for example. Record a hi-hat part on the first lap, the bass drum part on the sec- ond lap etc.

    Cycle Record mode: Overwrite (MIDI)

    As soon as you play a MIDI note (or send any MIDI mes- sage), all MIDI you have recorded on previous laps is over- written from that point on in the part. An example:

    1. You start recording in an eight bar cycle.

    2. The first take was not good enough – you start directly

    with a new take on the next cycle lap and overwrite the first take.

    3. After recording the second take you let the recording roll on and listen, without playing anything.
    You find that the take was good up until bar seven, for example.

    4. On the next lap, you wait until bar seven and start playing.
    This way you will overwrite the last two bars only.

    5. Make sure you stop playing before the next lap begins – otherwise you will overwrite the entire take.

    Cycle Record mode: Keep Last

    Each completed lap replaces the previously recorded lap. Note the following:

    • The cycle lap must be completed – if you deactivate re- cording or press Stop before the cursor reaches the right locator, the previous take will be kept.

    • IfyoudonotplayorinputanyMIDIduringalap,nothing happens (the previous take will be kept).

    81 Recording

     

    Cycle Record mode: Stacked/Stacked 2 (No Mute)

    Recording different types of MIDI messages

    In this mode, the following happens:

    • Each recorded cycle lap is turned into a separate MIDI part.

    • The track is divided into “lanes”, one for each cycle lap.

    • Thepartsarestackedaboveeachother,eachonadifferent

      lane.

    • All takes but the last one are muted (Stacked).

    • If Stacked 2 is selected, no muting takes place.

      This makes it easy to create a “perfect take” by combining the best parts from the different cycle laps. You can edit the parts in the Project window (by cutting, resizing and deleting) or you can use a MIDI editor as in the following example:

    1. Unmute the muted takes by clicking the parts with the Mute tool.

    2. Select all takes (parts) and open them in the Key Edi- tor for example.

    3. Use the part list pop-up menu on the toolbar to select which part to edit.
    See “Handling several parts” on page 339.

    1. Remove or edit notes as desired.

    2. When you are happy with the result, close the editor.

    3. To turn it all into a single MIDI part (containing your

    “perfect take”), select all parts and select “Merge MIDI in Loop” from the MIDI menu.

    7. In the dialog that appears, activate the Erase Destina- tion option and click OK.
    The remaining events in the parts are merged together into a single part.

  • S
    S

    I used Lgoic on my MAC and Sonar on my PC.

    Now I use studio one on both and I am very happy.