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    From another thread:

    "The two (or actually three) things to keep in mind are:

    1. Natural Volume makes only sense when it gets used for all instruments of an arrangement.

    2. Due to the huge dynamic range covered by the different instruments of an orchestra, most instruments bar a very few have to be set to surprisingly low volumes, to allow for the necessary headroom of the few loud ones. If your arrengement seems to be too quiet then, either raise the volume*) of all instruments by the same amount, or simply bring up your master bus' volume to meaningful levels.

    3. Natural Volume is meant to be used as a starting point. Don't expect this feature to be the answer to all your mixing tasks.

    *) "Raising the volume" is not the same as "using a louder dynamic layer"!

    BTW - this is what MIRx' Manual tells us about Natural Volume on p.11:

    Quote:

    NATURAL VOLUME

    > If you are writing for a full orchestra with full dynamics (ppp to fff), Natural Volume will provide you with a great starting point for your mix.

    > Natural Volume will also help to adjust the relations between instruments quickly.

    > E.g., if your loudest instrument is at a Natural Volume level of -10dB (Vienna Horn):

    1) you can set this instrument at 0dB in your mixer

    2) and add 10 dB to the natural volume value of all other instruments.

    > If you are writing a very quiet piece, you can raise the levels accordingly!"

    I never noticed MIR Pro forcing VI Pro to have a CC7 level, that would not help me. So I can't speak to that as an issue. With acoustic type of samples-based instruments I use MIDI Volume less, generally, than I would with an electro-acoustic or electronic samples-based instrument or synthesizer instrument but I do think of it somewhat in terms of the amount of energy going to the sound-producing engine still. Why is there in addition "expression" as a CC do you think?
    It's a matter of more control than being dogmatic about the meaning of '118' conflated with 'Natural Volume', IME. I do quite understand the point of Natural Volume as a feature but vis a vis a whole and everything else equal meaning all VSL which I haven't done. And there's some writing about exceptions by Dietz already.


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    @civilization 3 said:

    Dietz wrote [in the thread MIRx Clarinet natural volume]: "In any case - if the Natural Volume setting for the Clarinet is not to your liking, just reduce its volume by two or three dB. If the instruments seems to be too dry and up-front, bring up the wet signal a bit. After all, Natural Volume is meant to be used as a convenient starting point for your own creations. It can't and won't replace an individual mix for every new arrangement."

    Thanks for quoting that. I take his advice there to mean, "If you want to make it less natural, go right ahead and change the levels away from Natural Volume." But, that doesn't apply to me, as I don't want to make it unnatural. I want Natural Volume, which is a major factor why I bought MIR.


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    @Another User said:

    "Natural Volume' is [...] a suggested starting point"

    I'm basically parroting there what I've seen someone from VSL, perhaps Dietz, state about the matter on this forum.

    Dietz is in the habit of telling people there are no rules, and whatever sounds good is good. When it comes to Natural Volume, however, there are rules, and those rules are called The Laws of Physics. You cannot see people fly in the real, natural world, because The Laws of Physics.


    Yeah well, knock yourself out with this stuff. I guess you believe some things about mixing orchestral music that follows your dogma here, and you can work with that if you like. Amplification does not impact timbre of the instrument, though, for starters. It's called mixing. Where in your experience did you get the idea that someone mixing an orchestral never touched a fader? That seems to be your 'understanding'.

     

    You're on your own, you know better than I do apparently. I'm not going to take time to sort you out if you're going to insult my intelligence.


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    @civilization 3 said:

    From another thread:...

    But unfortately that sheds no light on the issue of this thread: How to set VI Pro Volume (CC7) so that it doesn't work against MIR's Natural Volume adjustments.

    Any wrong CC7 setting will defeat the purpose of MIR's Natural Volume adjustments. In order to avoid wrong CC7 settings, we'd need to know which CC7 settings are right. For that, we'd need VSL's cooperation, and that's what's missing here.


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    @Another User said:

    I'm not going to take time to sort you out if you're going to insult my intelligence.

    Bye.


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    @civilization 3 said:

    The volume of amplification does not impact timbre, though, for starters.

    As if I claimed it did?


    You're lecturing me about timbre and volume and saying "there are no DAW faders in the real world"*. I think my inference is completely in reference to your statement.

     

    * In fact there are in every recording studio. LOL! Where in your experience does this dogma derive from?
    [Rhetorical Question]


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    @Another User said:

    In fact there are in every recording studio. LOL! Where in your experience does this dogma derive from?

    Does your experience in recording studios entitle you to tell me which chords and notes to compose too, or only how I should adjust my volumes in my own compositions?

    The "dogma" you're railing against is all in your head. I'm just asking how to operate this computer program in order to get it to function as advertised. Your music isn't important enough to me for me to care how you set your own levels; please understand that. You took my request for customer support, and you made it about your own music, in your mind. It's not really about you and your music. I've never given a moment's thought to your music; understand now?

    I'm not interested in you, as your point seems only to take offense from my request for customer-support on a company's customer-support website.


  • Come on guys, no need to bicker. The question as I understood it is simply: how do the volume faders in VI Pro have to be set to use the natural volume feature of MIR correctly. Indeed a clarification from VSL would be welcome, and I'm sure they will give an answer once they get aware of the question. Their support is really great and they are as helpful as you could wish. So, I'd simply write an email to their support aksing the question.

    Meanwhile, the logical solution would be to set the volume sliders in VI Pro to the same value for each instrument. Maybe try this and listen if it gives you meaningful volume correlations? If something is way off that way you should be able to easily hear it. Otherwise you have a working solution until VSL answers your question.

    By the way, the Dynamic Range slider in VI Pro will have an influence too. I guess this one too should be set to the same value for all instruments when working with 'Natural Volume'.


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    @Another User said:

    I guess this one too should be set to the same value for all instruments when working with 'Natural Volume'.

    I'll refrain from speculating, and wait for VSL to clarify. It also raises the question which Dynamic-Range setting gives the natural amount of dynamic compression/expansion, and which ranges result in unnatural amounts of dynamic compression or expansion. (OT provides this info about BST in their manual, and I for one appreciate it greatly.)

    Thanks for your constructive input on this.


  • https://forum.vsl.co.at/topic/7/Welcome/47

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • https://forum.vsl.co.at/topic/7/Welcome/47

  • Well - it seems as you don't expect me to give any more answers, as you gave them all yourself already. :-) So let's have a nice evening now! (Sidenote: That's meant to be undestood as a light and joking tone.)

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Let me interject as well. I will agree with BachRules that achieving a natural sound is really science, and my motivation in buying MIR Pro is that I wouldn't have to worry as much about volumes, EQing, and mixing in general. After I downloaded a demo version of MIR Pro, I realized that I actually do have to worry about these things. For example, in regards to natural volume, I was doing a piece with a timpanis, and strings, and I set everything to "Natural Volume", but the natural volume of the timpani sounded way too load to even be considered natural to my ears (my VIPRO volume was set to 127 for all). I'm talking loud! I had the same experience with the Epic Horns (8 horns). Too loud to be considered natural to my ears. If the Timpani is usually placed in the back, shouldn't the natural volume be lower? In both cases I was forced to lower the volume.

    Anyway, I ended up buying MIR Pro because I think it does a great job that is close enough to natural. Maybe this feature will be refined in future versions. For now, I see it as a guide really.


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    @nektarios said:

    ///

     For example, in regards to natural volume, I was doing a piece with a timpanis, and strings, and I set everything to "Natural Volume", but the natural volume of the timpani sounded way too load to even be considered natural to my ears ///

     

    A single Timpani player is quite capable of being heard over 40 string players, a forte Timpani is loud.

    The solution is not to turn the Timpani down in volume,  but to play with softer dynamics,  

    A forte struck Timpani at a reduced volume level is not going to sound right.

     

    Just tell the Timpani player not to hit the Timps so hard !


  • I looked at the natural volume fader for the timpani and it is the highest compared to the other instruments. This seems wrong considering that a Timpani is really in the back. I tend to prefer softer dynamics for all instruments and the timpani simply sounded too load to be considered natural. I will send an example later.


  • Have you ever looked at the last page of the MIRx Manual? All values used for Natural Volume are listed there. Timpanis, Gongs, Piatti, Tamtams, Bass- and Snaredrums are the instruments with the smallest volume-offsets (read: By comparison they are the loudest ones.) 

    HTH,


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • PS: Percussion instruments are usually put on the most remote parts of a stage _because_ they are the loudest instruments. ;-)


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  •  

    I respectfully disagree. When most of your strings have large offsets, and your timpani has very little (even none), it sounds abnormally unatural! Think about it. The relative balance is distorted. I will send an example so you can clearly hear it. There is something wrong with this formala. The relative levels between timpani and other instruments is too large. For example, if the timpani has a large sound by itself, and you are not adding any volume offset, you are further making it even louder. The patch I was using was the timpani roll. This was for the Hollywood competition a few months back. I will send it in a few hours.


  • Interesting discussion.  The art and science division is not so hard and fast as implied here.  There’s a blend of knowledge useful to the artist and scientist drawn from acoustics, psychoacoustics and perception at work that are all useful in guiding the actions and decisions of the composer/orchestrator.  There’s always an interaction at work between the objective, measurable aspects of sound and their subjective, perceptual outcomes.  For pretty much every aspect of what we do this division between measurement and perception exists and that’s where science and art blend — a useful blend to keep in mind, and pretty powerful too when you start to leverage that interaction in the making of well-crafted art, which is anything but "anything goes".

     

    From my own experience in both audio engineering, music production and composition, I can add a further ‘rationalization’ of how Natural Volume works in relation to ensemble balance.  When the sound of an instrument is captured in recording, the general goal is to record it at the highest level possible without distortion.  This gives us the best quality sample with the highest dynamic range and lowest signal to noise ratio.  But, as a consequence, quiet instruments, when played back at full level, will sound unnaturally loud in comparison to loud instruments, for which the recording level has to be lowered so as not to overload the recording system.  This reveals the logic behind the ‘Natural Volume’ system.  If you take a look at the table of Natural Volumes for the VSL instruments Dietz referred to, you can see that the quieter the instrument or ensemble is, the more reduction in its level is applied as ‘Natural Volume’.  Instruments in the violin family are among the quietest in the orchestra, which is one of the reasons one need so many in a section to strike the desired balance in an orchestra in which almost every other instrument is significantly louder.  To achieve a doubling of perceived loudness you need to increase the level by about 6 dB.  Simply doubling the number of instruments won’t do the trick because adding t wo sounds of the same intensity only results in a 3 dB increase in level.  So there’s a counterintuitive relation at work here between the number of instruments and their perceived loudness that also need to be taken into account.  Art informs science.

     

    The timpani is, indeed, an instrument with a huge dynamic range and can generate among the loudest sounds in the orchestra when played hard.  Anything with that size of vibrating diaphram and corresponding resonator is gonna be loud!  This is fundamental orchestration technique.  Things get complicated in the age of electronic recording and mixing.  The technical aspects of electronic/digital audio production can cause these real-world details to be lost.  Before the age of audio production the two basic controls over balance were the interaction of the acoustics of the concert hall and the group of players under the direction of a conductor.  Now, in the age of audio production, if you want the timpani to be present at lower levels a judicious application of EQ can help bring it out without resorting to playing it louder and overwhelming the ensemble of quieter instruments.  This may not necessarily be ‘Natural’ according to the laws of acoustics that determine the sound an instrument in a particular hall, but may sound more ‘Natural’ to the ear.  Where does one draw the line?  

     

    In addition, players will naturally modulate the intensity of their playing based on the acoustics of the room they play in.  If you recall, all the VSL samples have been recorded in one and the same neutral acoustic environment.  That’s not the acoustic environment you’re composing, arranging, and orchestrating for.  We put our samples in one of several virtual spaces based on either the venues provided by MIR or some other spaces based on impulse response recordings, or even algorithmic simulations of resonant spaces.  The loudness of each and every instrument is altered by the resonant characteristics of the particular space it’s being sounded in.  They *will* sound different in relation to each other in different spaces depending on the relation between the frequency content of each instrument and the resonances specific to the space they’re sounded in.  In this sense Natural Volume really is only a starting place, based on the ‘ideal’ acoustic of the silent stage, an acoustic space that’s been treated to minimize such resonances and their ability to alter the overall presence of an instrument.

     

    Two cents worth of the art of science, or is that the science of art? 

     

    Best,

     

     

    Kenneth.


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    @Another User said:

    ... This may not necessarily be ‘Natural’ according to the laws of acoustics that determine the sound an instrument in a particular hall, but may sound more ‘Natural’ to the ear.  Where does one draw the line?

    In this thread, the topic draws the line by saying: This thread is about objective levels and has absolutely nothing to do with how those levels are percevied by any human's ear. Pretend an asteroid killed all the humans, for this thread. We're just talking about sound waves in a hypothetical world with no humans.

    As people continue to misunderstand this topic, I'll continue to clarify that it's unrelated to human perception. It's just about numbers in DAW's and pressure-waves moving through air, not about humans. If I could make that clear using fewer words, I would.