Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

203,708 users have contributed to 43,341 threads and 259,641 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 3 new thread(s), 12 new post(s) and 62 new user(s).

  • Full Version of March on Mordor

    I finally have it!... for those of you who have been asking to hear March on Mordor in its entirety.

    http://www.musicforthesoul.net/Fanfare%20-%20March%20on%20Mordor%20%28final%29.mp3

    I really would love input on the mix (although comments on the composition are welcome too...this is just part of a whole suite I am doing based on "The of the Rings" books.)

    thanks

    calaf

  • oh yeah...it will only be available to listen to this week.

    calaf

  • [...

  • Is this really about Lord of the Rings directly? I feel it would be more helpful to you if you would just present it as your music, and sever the ties with Lord of the Rings. You are immediately inviting comparison with the movie score and what good does that do? Immediately the listener thinks "Oh he's got his own little music to that story, huh? How cute." However that is up to you if you want to invite that reaction. But why not just be inspired by whatever you're inspired by and let the listener decide what the music is "about"?

    Musically I was impressed with this. That demo you posted before made me think this was no good, but I can see now it is very interesting music, and I'm particularly impressed - as a brass player - by the fact it is pure brass and percussion. Not the typical standard big Romantic orchestra done to death these days.

    I liked the themes and your handling of the performance is realistic. I agree with Paul the mix could be more wet, though I don't think it's a problem. I noticed the legato horns at the beginning might need to be varied somewhat since you get into that familiar problem - repeating a legato phrase gives the EXACT SAME LEGATO. A danger peculiar to this library.

    I heard a strange sound a couple times and didn't know what the hell it was at 2:05 and 4:36. Sounded like some primordial General Midi brass snuck into your mix. What happened there? An electronic buzzing noise masquerading as brass, though fortunately just briefly. Also, the trombones at 2:52 sounded like they needed legato instead of smoothly played sustains, whose tails sounded too overlapped.

    But those criticisms are minor. I thought this was an imaginative, interesting piece.

  • First I will respond to Paul and then William...

    Paul,
    Thanks for the tips about making things sound less tidy. I guess if I am going for realism I am going to have to do that.
    I think you misunderstand the title "March". When I say "March" I am not referring to a style of form of musical composition but an actual event from the book "Return of the King" from the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. The armies of middle earth are marching on the black gate in the land of Mordor. Thus the title. Hope that explains it.
    I must disagree with you about no build-ups in the piece. There is one from 1:00 until 1:35 there is one from 3:30 until the crese at 3:48 and also 4:45 until the end. There are also smaller things going on throughout that correspond to parts of the battle going on in the book.

    William,
    I'm glad you liked the idea of using just the brass and perciussion sections. I plan on using a different instrumentation for every movement of the Suite.
    Those noises you hear are simply the mod-wheel at work! I know some people don't think the mod-wheel samples sound very good but hey...I only own Opus 1 and don't have access to all the hunderds of samples. Do you have any suggestions for those parts?
    I must differ with you on the inspiration behind the piece. It has absolutely nothing to do with the movie. Did you know that since Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings there have been many many pieces inspired by his books? Music with styles and genre ranging anywhere from New Age to Blue Grass...its all been done. The books have even inspired other art forms such as the visual arts, painting, sculpture, architecture, etc...so I really strongly have to disagree. I've even been thinking about doing a whole CD with songs inspired by all the great literature from the past 2,000 plus years. Its just programatic music and that sort of thing has been done for ages.
    As for the wet/dry mix...a number of people have been saying it should be "more wet". My settings were:

    dry -3.6dB
    wet -5.4dB
    13 ms predelay
    (and the stereo pan of course for placement on the stage)

    lets say I were to use these settings for the brass section of an orchestral piece...does anyone know how many feet the woods are in front of the brass and the strings in front of the woods? And what does this correspond to in dB setting for dry and wet? (+predelay)

    Again thanks for the input guys...this is the first time I've posted a comp and it has been fun. Plus I'm learning more!

    calaf

  • Well of course those books have created many offspring. The first was a song cycle that was written in about 1967 which I briefly had a copy of. (Not very good.) The second was a collossally stupid piece of derivative hackwork called "Sword of Shannara" which is now a major publishing industry. As are all the rest of the LEGIONS of Tolkien imitators that publish trilogy after trilogy today. Apparently people today will read a masterpiece like Lord of the Rings or a piece of shit like "Sword of Shannara" and not mind very much the difference. As long as there are some elves and wizards and monsters in it they don't care about minor details like STORY or MEANING. The number of ripoffs and hack authors ready to give people more, more, more is actually a little frightening.

    That was the only reason I point out the danger of associating yourself with this huge "industry" of the Tolkienesque.

  • last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    Well of course those books have created many offspring. The first was a song cycle that was written in about 1967 which I briefly had a copy of. (Not very good.) The second was a collossally stupid piece of derivative hackwork called "Sword of Shannara" which is now a major publishing industry. As are all the rest of the LEGIONS of Tolkien imitators that publish trilogy after trilogy today. Apparently people today will read a masterpiece like Lord of the Rings or a piece of shit like "Sword of Shannara" and not mind very much the difference. As long as there are some elves and wizards and monsters in it they don't care about minor details like STORY or MEANING. The number of ripoffs and hack authors ready to give people more, more, more is actually a little frightening.

    That was the only reason I point out the danger of associating yourself with this huge "industry" of the Tolkienesque.


    I think I see where you're coming from now...

    hey in your demos -when you mix different violin sampels (chamber + solo + legato - I can't remember exactly which ones) but anyway, how does it end up sounding like one section and not 18 times 3 or 4 or whatever. And then doesn't this make the violin section heavier then all the others?


    calaf

  • Calaf

    I forgot to say one other thing - the copyright issues! Huge with this book. It would severely limit what you can advertise concerning your own music. Sorry to keep harping on that subject though.

    I've noticed the VSL strings blend incredibly well. The chamber violins are only six players, so with ensemble you end up with 20, or 21 if you add solo, which sounds very normal - not at all too thick. Or just solo with ensemble or chamber also works. However it does NOT give you the so-called "Epic Strings."

    That is taken to mean huge sounding strings. But the Chamber or Solo strings will actually make the section sound smaller in a sense - more intimate - but can add a very expressive sound. The size does not contradict the other sections either, I have found. Though you of course adjust the overall level downward, the more voices you layer. And I remember making the solo violin only just audible - not very loud at all Otherwise you have a solo like a violin concerto. BTW Jay Bacall did an interesting thing with layering three solo violins that sounded great. Obviously using three different specific sets of articulations to avoid phasing the same samples.

    One other thing to do is have the second violins not have as much layering - maybe just ensemble or even just Chamber. That way they fulfill their purpose harmonically, without dominating the main line which is given to firsts (at least in conventional practice).

  • 2:20-2:49 reminds me of the Dies Irae theme in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, mov. 5.

    I enjoyed it.

  • [quote=William]

    I forgot to say one other thing - the copyright issues! Huge with this book. It would severely limit what you can advertise concerning your own music. Sorry to keep harping on that subject though.

    I did think about that and I'm looking into it because I don't know what I can and can't do as a composer. Thanks for the tips on the strings!

    calaf

  • last edited
    last edited

    @B.C.Johnson said:

    2:20-2:49 reminds me of the Dies Irae theme in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, mov. 5.

    I enjoyed it.


    Thanks for checking my piece out and for the compliment....although I must diagree with you that it sounds like Berlioz.

    calaf

  • Actually I did not notice the similarity in a glaring way. And anyway, the Dies Irae theme is not from Berlioz - it is a Gregorian chant. He used it as a direct allusion to death and the Day of Judgement. As did Rachmaninoff who especially loved the theme and used it in several works, most notably "Isle of the Dead" which is by the way a masterpiece of orchestration. I just have to mention Rachmaninoff and how much I like him for the benefit of all the atonalists here. Don't you guys just LOVE that heavy-duty ROMANTICISM?

  • Nice pink colour, Bill...

  • last edited
    last edited

    @William said:

    Actually I did not notice the similarity in a glaring way. And anyway, the Dies Irae theme is not from Berlioz - it is a Gregorian chant. He used it as a direct allusion to death and the Day of Judgement. As did Rachmaninoff who especially loved the theme and used it in several works, most notably "Isle of the Dead" which is by the way a masterpiece of orchestration. I just have to mention Rachmaninoff and how much I like him for the benefit of all the atonalists here. Don't you guys just LOVE that heavy-duty ROMANTICISM?


    Yeah, I know it's a Gregorian chant. I didn't know Rachmaninoff used it though. Did he arrange the theme with horns like Berlioz? Let's not forget the ultra lo-fi synth arrangement in the beginning of The Shining. And yes, romanticism is my favorite style to listen to.

  • I just realized I was wrong to keep suggesting that calaf not make this so explicitly about Lord of the Rings.

    It doesn't matter what other use has been made of this story. If someone has an inspiration to write music for it, that is great. It is no different than a composer of the past writing a piece inspired by "Faust" or "Beowulf" or whatever excites you to do music.

    To hell with the copyright issues. So you advertise it differently, big deal. Also, Howard Shore does not own this story. I can see someone writing even better music to it. Nobody can stop you from being inspired.

  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on