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    @saxmand said:

    Hi Beat. I think you original request was to hear some classical music, obviously so you could compare more easily. And it's a shame nobody have been able to give you that, but for me the extra "dimension" is not necessarily there. For me VSL is all about flexibility...

    Hi Saxmand

    Thanks for your effort and your very interesting example. Yes your piece seems really made for using the DS-Library.

    Hi all

    Thanks once more to all who helped here in a way.

    The reason why I'm back now only just after a week: Things have changed! [<:o)] [H]...

    I worked hard on a...  Chamberstrings - Dimensionstrings - demo ... and of course without MIR.

    I used the same piece of music and played it with the Chamber library, with those of the DS-library and also with...

    I used the same mixer, the same output Bus/Effects...

    ... and

    here is the result:



    All the important matters are explained in the video. Press "pause" for a better reading of all the context information.

    !!!!!!!!!!!

    IMPORTANT:

    Keep in mind that this is a comparison of the sounds of all the libraries.

    So the video doesn't show for example the huge flexibility of the Dimension Strings compared to the other libraries - specially in connection with MIR.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Finally the whole piece - now with a recorder as well: Telemann, D-Suite for Viola

    Above all: Have fun!

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • WoOOow!!!!!!! This is an awesome demo Beat!!! I am shocked! Loooveed it! GREAT JOB!!! Thank you for sharing it!!! I love the reverb too!!! It sure puts things in great perspective now (happy to own all the string libraries now)... I also really enjoyed the mastering and presence of the pieces


    Honestly, I could not tell much of a difference between the pieces. :D

  • Thank you so much for doing this Beat! To my ears there isn't a huge difference between Chamber and DS here, but there is enough to validate my own decision to use Solo and DS as the core of my chamber ensemble template (rather than Chamber and Solo). The ability to flow in and out of divisi is of course an added flexibility with this configuration.


  • Yes thanks for doing this example Beat.  I think I have a very slight preference for the chamber strings and/or chamber strings plus solo strings sound myself, but there isn't a lot in it.

    What has drawn you to using the HOFA reverb over others available (say the hybrid or convolution reverbs in the Vienna Suite) if I may ask?


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    @Arbee said:

    To my ears there isn't a [quote=nektarios]Honestly, I could not tell much of a difference between the pieces. :D

    Hello

    In addition to the video some posts above I can offer further more files for an even better comparison.

    Here is a zip-file with the same music but with only one instrument per audio file.

    So you will be able to compare 3SoloViolins, Ch-Violins, Ch+SO-Violins, DS-Violins, dito Violas, dito Cellos one by one so to say.

    Edit:

    I've decided to delete these Links because I don't want to play a library off against another.

    CH-DS-Comparison-Kaufmann_mp3-files.zip (mp3-files)

    CH-DS-Comparison-Kaufmann_AAC-files.zip (AAC-files)

    Once more...

    ...the whole piece - now with a recorder as well: Telemann, D-Suite for Viola

    Have fun

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Thanks Beat, and to everyone else who posted a demo.

    That's a fantastic video! I think I might have to consider buying Chamber Strings...


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    @Stephen Rees said:

    What has drawn you to using the HOFA reverb over others available (say the hybrid or convolution reverbs in the Vienna Suite) if I may ask?

    I own Altiverb (still 6), The Cubase ReVerence, VSL Hybrid, VSL Convolution, Pristine from Voxengo,... and also the HOFA-Convolution Reverb + a lot of additional IRs of course.

    For creating rooms I most time only use the first part of an Impuls Respons (the Early Reflections). This for getting the depth without the more or less staic convolution tail.

    So an Algorithmic Reverb is for the tail later on (over all).

    Now HOFA comes with some IRs which are great for this first IR-Part.

    In other words I always use the effect which can solve a problem the way I like.

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Awesome! With the individual tracks I can distinguish the differences. The billion dollar question... How would this same piece sound with MIR? You have really opened my eyes when it comes to reverbs!! I personally find this the best classical piece I have ever heard that has great loudness and presence and feels so natural...

  • Hello Beat,

    thanks for the effort of doing this video, I consider it very helpful as a possibility to compare the sound of the libraries.

    But what I do not understand, what this has to do with your own original intention to open this thread. You claimed that you never heard the "dimension", you said that you were missing demonstrations of the real capabilities of the dimension strings. And whenever someone chimed in to explain, that the VI Pro humanization section is doing well enough you repeatedly insisted in having individual tracks for each player, even with different articulations for each of them.

    Your video simply uses the pre-built All-Player-matrices, and you use your own reverb solution. So the only difference to existing DS-Demos is the lack of the MIR Reverb. I'd like to note, that that is not far from the little demo I posted some days ago.

    So, as good a comparison tool your video might be, I do not hear the "dimension" you asked for so badly in it either. I would be interested if you for yourself have come to a conclusion. Do you still think that applying individual articulations to each player would enhance the performance, or do you - now that you own the DS and know how they work - agree, that the humanization function is enough, as everybody already suggested before you made this demo?


  • @Beat: Yes thanks for those files.  Tremedously useful to have them broken down like that.  I'm still very drawn to the solo strings and chamber strings sounds (also the mix of the two together which sounds very natural and pleasing to me) over Dimension Strings in this case.

    Thanks also for your explanation re the HOFA reverb.  The space you have created here sounds magnificent.  Detailed but open and spacious.  Bravo!


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    @MassMover said:

    So, as good a comparison tool your video might be, I do not hear the "dimension" you asked for so badly in it either. I would be interested if you for yourself have come to a conclusion. Do you still think that applying individual articulations to each player would enhance the performance, or do you - now that you own the DS and know how they work - agree, that the humanization function is enough, as everybody already suggested before you made this demo?

    Hello Massmover

    Edit:

    I've decided not to give any official comment about the different libraries. I don't want to put up one library against the other. here.

    Answer deleted

    Hope you can understand my decision you got the answer anyway.

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • To me this demonstrated that VSL string libraries sound great no matter which one you choose! BUT to me your demo was a big statement on alternative reverbs considering that I am shopping around for a good one. I always thought MIR is overpriced, and I so wish they dropped the price (and no, I don't want MIR PRO 24). I am not ready to download their demo as I am going away on vacation soon.

  • I totally disagree with Beat Kaufman about MIR and Dimension Strings. 

    MIR is the best reverb ever created for orchestra samples.  It is a masterpiece of engineering exactly suited to what is needed for a symphony orchestra, and I do not understand how he can trash it, preferring a lame algorhythmic reverb or some altiverb-type generic sound to the amazing spatial depth and sound of MIR tweaked perfectly for the VSL samples.   It is  totally wrong to say it is  "boxy."   It sounds rich and full.

    Also, what is this thread for in general? To trash Dimension Strings?  Why do you want to do that?  You "probably never heard the Dimension. "   Well LISTEN CLOSER is my advice.  

    I strongly feel people should not post things that criticize VSL's work in this negative way.   It is a fabulously beautiful sound they have created  so it should not be attacked like that.


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    @William said:

    I totally disagree with Beat Kaufman about MIR and Dimension Strings. 

    MIR is the best reverb ever created for orchestra samples.  It is a masterpiece of engineering exactly suited to what is needed for a symphony orchestra, and I do not understand how he can trash it, preferring a lame algorhythmic reverb or some altiverb-type generic sound to the amazing spatial depth and sound of MIR tweaked perfectly for the VSL samples.   You are totally wrong Beat about it sounding "boxy."   It sounds rich and full.

    Also, what is this thread for in general? To trash Dimension Strings?  Why do you want to do that?  You "probably never heard the Dimension. "   Well LISTEN CLOSER is my advice.   You'll hear it - unless you are TONE-DEAF.  

    I strongly feel you should not post things that criticize VSL's work in this negative way.  It is very irritating to me.   And why?  Because you have no right to do that.  You don't have anything better, you have not spent vast sums of Euros creating it, and figured out every possible way to make it sound as good as it can be. And you are wrong about the sound of the library.  It is a fabulously beautiful sound they have created - so stop attacking it.

    William I hope you can find serenity in a universe where different people will have different opinions about what sounds beautiful.


  • William, I never saw Beat's examples as an attack on VSL. Quite the opposite, had I heard his examples during my time that I was shopping around for an Orchestral library, it would be a huge selling point for me for buying VSL. I like and appreciate Beat's work around VSL. And yes, I totally agree that VSL products are masterpieces. I thank God a company like this decided to create a wonderful and amazing product like VSL. For me, my only complain is I wish there was better documentation and better prices... :D Concerning MIR, I probably will end up buying MIR because let's face it, it's a reverb specifically for Orchestral pieces! What Beat demonstrated though is that you can achieve pleasing results with other reverbs, but it is a different way of working (for example, using two reverbs, disabling the tail of the first reverb etc.) All depends on the sound you are looking for. Anyway, my two cents...

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    @Beat Kaufmann said:

    I worked hard on a...  Chamberstrings - Dimensionstrings - demo ... and of course without MIR.

    I used the same piece of music and played it with the Chamber library, with those of the DS-library and also with...

    I used the same mixer, the same output Bus/Effects...

    ... and

    here is the result:



    All the important matters are explained in the video. Press "pause" for a better reading of all the context information.

    !!!!!!!!!!!

    IMPORTANT:

    Keep in mind that this is a comparison of the sounds of all the libraries.

    So the video doesn't show for example the huge flexibility of the Dimension Strings compared to the other libraries - specially in connection with MIR.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Finally the whole piece - now with a recorder as well: Telemann, D-Suite for Viola

    With all your demos I make out that obviously the library is used as we are using the chamber- or orchestra library.

    So my questions

    Can you publish a DS-Demo ...

    A) ...which shows all 8 violins individual triggered or even played with individual articulations?

    B) ...which shows the difference "single triggered / multiple trigered"  and/or  "one articulation for all/ multiple articulations?

    C) ...which uses this multiple technique with the whole orchestra?

    Thanks in advance

    PS.

    I would like "unison-ensemble-demos" of DS which ares playing not very precise and more individual than the chambers do ...the promissed main advantage of DS - so to say.

    Therefore I am interested in a piece of orchestra, played with DS with the possible individual play of each player.

    That's the sound I would like to hear now but with the whole orchestra.

    Beat, it could be that you don't know until now that you have a Ferrari but you always drive it only with 30km/h 😉

    I want to know the real potential of the DS-Library. That's why I'm asking for the demos above.

    All the best.

    About the "Ferrari for shopping": Each articulation seems to come 8times or more with DS (one for each player) in case of the violins.

    But it seems to me that you only use them as one sound. So, having tonnes of samples on board but only using them always as one sound brought me to the comparison with the Ferrari and 30km/h... maybe a bit a daring comparison, sorry, but it probably contains a core of truth.

    Now you posted 4 pages and I didn't get a demo...

    I don't want to discuss about libraries and effects...

    I only hope to listen to a string piece which contains obviously the big advantage of the Dimensions: The individual play of each musician in unison.

    I would like a demo...

    I don't want to discuss libraries, techniques, effects, 

    I only would like to get a DS orchestra demo

    played with the individual trigger mode,

    please, please please!!!

    A link is enough

    words words words but obviously no demo.


  • I find it takes a lot of work to get Dimension Strings sounding their best. A real string section has a different performance from each person, and I can't see a way to re-create that without recording a separate performance for each player. When I do that I think it's magical.

    With a conventional string library, the natural variations amongst the musicians are already baked in. With DS that's not the case, so if you give everyone an identical MIDI track, it can sound like an orchestra of robots, as you are eliminating the natural variations between the players (such as timing, tuning and dynamics).

    The Humanize controls are fantastic time-savers and the results are very impressive, but I think the best way to reproduce the sound of individual musicians is to record separate performances.

    I'd love to get a Dimension orchestra together, with a different person playing each musician's part and see what it sounds like. I'd imagine it could be awe-inspiring.


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    @johnstaf said:

    A real string section has a different performance from each person, and I can't see a way to re-create that without recording a separate performance for each player. When I do that I think it's magical.

    With a conventional string library, the natural variations amongst the musicians are already baked in. With DS that's not the case

    That is exactly right and why I don't understand this weird attack on Dimension - it is a unique library in all sampling systems yet done - there is nothing else like it -  and it became obvious to me the second I started using it the potential is huge, either using it alone or with the other VSL strings.  It is truly like having each player of a string ensemble in your own room, playing exactly what you want them to play, with all their individual differences.  And one may use separate tracks for each and every player, or just one track for all of them with humanize, so it has a lot of flexibility in how much you want to make of it.


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    @johnstaf said:

    I'd love to get a Dimension orchestra together, with a different person playing each musician's part and see what it sounds like. I'd imagine it could be awe-inspiring.

    Why not going one step further: When you program each part seperately it is still only one person (you) who makes the decisions, while in an orchestra each violin is played by an different human being. As a result of trying to get hyper-realistic you might end up to program violin 8 in a way you would not play it yourself - just for the sake of individualism.

    So here's the idea: 25 users (at least) of the DS library collaborate in programming 1 piece of orchestral music. Tempo will be designated. Each user will do only one single instrument of te DS lib according to his individual taste. Result will be exported into a standard midi file, also the VI Pro matrix/performance will be saved. All individual tracks will be collected by one user who will put them together in his DAW setup and apply any kind of reverb.

    I would be in.


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    @MassMover said:

    Why not going one step further: When you program each part seperately it is still only one person (you) who makes the decisions, while in an orchestra each violin is played by an different human being. As a result of trying to get hyper-realistic you might end up to program violin 8 in a way you would not play it yourself - just for the sake of individualism.

    So here's the idea: 25 users (at least) of the DS library collaborate in programming 1 piece of orchestral music. Tempo will be designated. Each user will do only one single instrument of te DS lib according to his individual taste. Result will be exported into a standard midi file, also the VI Pro matrix/performance will be saved. All individual tracks will be collected by one user who will put them together in his DAW setup and apply any kind of reverb.

    I would be in.

    Hilarious Idea MassMover. I would also be in :)