That is great! Can someone please post the major diferences between finale 2012 and Sibelius 7? Sibelius 7 is good with Midi,VST (VSL), and Finale has great looking scores but I don't know how the midi or VST works for Finale.

Ricardo

Hi William

I did nothing wrong, just import a midi file.

This file is the Symphony From The New World of Anton Dvorak.

I work a lot with the score and the mouse (I play very badly the piano)

When you have work with Logic, Finale is so poor, not user friendly, mono task.

With Logic you can edit a track, a group of tracks while it is playing, it is very handy when you work on a part

You change instrument while it is playing add and effect, Logic is totally MULTI TASK ! but it does not deal with the articulations !!!!!

It's a pitty that Logic team would not listen to his user and add the management of the articulations !

.

Hi William

I do not want to fight with you again.

This midi file is imported with no problems in Sibelius, MuseScore, Notion SLE and Logic

I dont know why it is not imported correctly in Finale, I have set the quantize to maximum.

When you import into Logic there is nothing to specify no parameter to set !

Finale is just not made to import large complex scores and it is badly programmed (saying this politly)

This ends this sub-subject

.

 Sometimes, I question if you guys will get along any time soon. This post was originally for Musescore debate if It was compatible with VSL and afterwards you guys turn it into a fightfest between Cyril and William. Are you willing to close every post out there? You two turned this topic discussion into rivalry for you.

My main question: Do you guys achieve anything by arguing? The last time a thread got closed because of you two. Are you willing to close this topic as well?

Ricardo

Poor William, if you think Finale is great, stays with it.

Sibelius is much better ! Logic is much better !

Again you speak of this you dont know about, have you ever programmed ! 

Finale is dated, it cannot import, it is mono task, it is not 64k, it has poor editing functions

Let's go back to MuseScore

I have tried to speak with them, it's not there priority to be compatible with other banks because those banks are not free and MuseScore is free and is open

If you find a programmer that is volunter to write those routine, it will be great. I have stop programming 15 year ago !

May be you should wait to see what comes with MuseScore 2, I had a beta but it was really a beta of  beta of beta

I have contact the support of Overture, they have gave me the trick to edit the midi channel, so for 87 $ it seems to be a good candidate.

They are supposed to send me a PDF to buid a XML file for VSL. It is 2 days I am waiting for it !

For me I am going to wait that Logic includes dealing with Meta in the Scripter plug-in.

As soon this is availlable I will re-do my Environnement 

I wanted to apologize to Ricardo for hijacking the thread.  I was trying to correct the misinformation about Finale Cyril was posting then decided to forget it.

However I cannot let this latest insulting GARBAGE from Cyril go unanswered.  I've used both Finale since it was first created and Sibelius also.  Also some older notation programs.  How much have you used Finale?  State exactly how much you have programmed with it and give examples other than that ridiculous screwup you did with your total incompetence.  Also, you are flatly wrong it has poor editing - are you kidding?  It has editing controls to do everything possible in notation.   Professional engravers use it all the time.

What have your programmed?  I want to see it.  You are on this Forum, telling everyone what the absolute truth is, but never once have you posted any music or scores. 

I want to see a score you did with Logic or Sibelius that is better than Finale.  Post it right here.  I posted some of mine and you totally ignored them.  All right -  where are your scores?   Esp[ecially the "complex orchstral scores."  I want to see them. 

Also, let's hear a piece of music you did with all your impressive hardware.  I am seriously asking to hear what you do - you yell at everyone, tell people they know nothing, but you hide behind the internet.  I've never heard any music you actually do though I've heard all your ranting.  I am not hiding - I've posted everything I do on my website, here, etc.  But you never do and simply contradict anyone you disagree with in an insulting way.  

 Don't worry William, I understand. Finale is great for High quality sheet music. I prefer it instead of sibelius. In Sibelius, I have quite a pickle of doing a good-looking score but Finale has conquered its place with High resolution sheets. That I can't deny. (I still love Sibelius because of the playback)

Here is something for both, Cyril and William. Don't make comments on software you don't know or even tried. Never, ever judge a program to be bad... if you want to blame anyone, blame the user. Finale and Sibelius are both great programs. They are unique and fantastic. You just need to get the hang of it... I agree with William, don't criticize 'Finale' by going over the marks and stating it is absolete and awful because It is not.

William learned the basics of Finale and more of it. I am still getting the hand of Sibelius 6 and 7 in the conservatory. Certainly for starters it is an headache.

Cyril, I am not criticizing you in this. I understand you but if there is someone that is more experienced than us. We need to listen, because they know what they are doing. Just like me. I made a really bad commentary (Not involving swears or anything) in one of parts in the forum. Just that I said that VSL needs to add more layers and William told me because of ignorance that I need to learn more about samples. So I took that as a base to learn new things.

Also, you can try with Sibelius and Finale. Sibelius is very good on what it does and Finale too. Try reading some user commentaries to help you out.

(Here will be a list of my songs done with Sibelius 7. Forgive me if the links I posted, I just wanted to show some of my work I did as a student. I have enjoyed sibelius 7 very much that I am quite fond of it. (I also know this is not the part of the forum for these type of things)), ((I used Dropbox))

Some Scores I did with Sibelius 7 at the conservatory: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Improv%20in%20Bb%20Minor%20-%20Darkness%20-%20Full%20Score.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Bass%20Trombone%20Soliloquoy.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/%C3%89tude%20in%20F%23%20Majeur%20-%20The%20Pentatonic%20Juggler%20-%20Full%20Score.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Po%C3%A8me%20in%20C%20-%20Fable%20Fabuleuse%20-%20Full%20Score.pdf (Incomplete)

Best,

Ricardo

I have not critisize Finale for printing music, I am critisyzing Finale because of it's importing, not 64 bit, non multi task, the editing function and it is non user friendly compared to Sibelius !

editing I mean :

I have a quartet on a stave, I want to explode it by instrument ! How do you do that with Finale ? I have not see any function !

I want to extract the lower note of a stave to move it to the a bass instrument ! I have not see any function !

I want to replace every C0 with E0 ! I have not see any function !

.....

This is what I call  editing 

 Thanks Ricardo, you are a gentleman.

btw I looked at your scores - they look great.

 Cyril, you should prove to William, showing some of your scores here. To be honest, I never heard any music from you and I really wanted to! I posted some of my scores. So you can show to william that you know how to use notation softwares and Logic.

However, I did two snippets with the bass clarinet and bass trombone(the sheet music was actually posted in the previous comments). I'm not sure if you guys noticed but I posted in composition section and no one ever noticed. Still I'll post it here. I did these with Sibelius and I wanted some feedback about improving my scoring in sibelius and in terms of use with VSL Library products.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Did%20you%20smile%20at%20the%20Moon.mp3

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Bass%20Trombone%20Soliloquoy.mp3 

Best, 

Ricardo

 Ricardo

Those sound very good to me.  The clarinet is excellent - I have no  criticisms. On the bass trombone maybe more breaths, because if you've ever been playing next to one, you'll notice it takes a huge amount of air to create those low notes, especially with crescendos.  So if the samples emulate that it makes it sound more natural.  But it does sound very good as it is. 

One other thing I noticed is something that I also have difficulty with and have no clear solution - when you switch to a crescendo sample, the overall amplitude of the note is different than the mf or p sample, resulting in an artificial sudden change.  This is obviously because the recordiong had to be made at the loudest volume that the crescendo reached, which is lower than the mf or p samples.  So some way needs to be found to equalize those levels, which I know is not easy.  Maybe you can figure out something there.  One thing I've thought of but never done is to reduce the dynamic range of the crescendo sample a little so that it matches better at the very start the level of the softer surrounding notes and then does not go so loud as to become unuseable.  DG might have an idea on that as he always has many solutions to various problems.    But anyway it all sounds very good in general.   

Hi Ricardo

I will repeat again I am not critisizing the scoring of Finale, I am critisyzing Finale because of it's importing, not 64 bit, non multi task, the editing function and it is non user friendly compared to Sibelius !

William is a musician, I am more a computer guru and a musician. 

My backgound is 35 year of programming, télécommunications,  testing and beta testing software and computer (from mini to mainframe, Compucorp, Monroe, Intertechnique, DEC (Cluster of Vax), IBM (4331), BURROUGH (B7900), WANG (network of a little dozen of);

I started the music at 6 with piano, the learn fulte, then I moved to Drums and moved again to singer.

I stoped at 18 going to the army

After the army I started to work and I started to build my own synth adding board of different brand on the Maplin concept

I have devellope a programmable harmonic controler using a Z80 (hardware and software)

Then I started to compose on a CX5M, moved to Atari and to Mac with Logic, I did sold a few music, I have also made a few submarines films with there music . I got sick so I had to stop my computer job so I went 4 year at the music university, took drum lessons for 4 year too. Now I have a band to play pop and rock. I have help a few youngsters to harmonize and record there music for free

Last time we had a fight  is because William is seeing things on the musical sight and not on the technical sight. For me with my backgound it is the contrary.

Concernig VSL and orchestral music, I am still experimenting, I spend almost a year building my Environement so I can change articulation using program changes, I have done the score of a film but I am not enough happy with it to publish it.

I did a lot of hardware testing using different software and hardware configuration, I did some testing with VSL too when they re-wrote the Mac loading of samples 

Then I move to MIR, so I had to redoo tests !

My studio is dismanteld since last october, because I am building a new one, it should be ready for mid October !!! at long last !!!  (you can see the buiding phases on Facebook if you ask to be my friend)

So this year  and the year before I have spend my time making plans, fighting with the town hall and my buider (the buiding permit was refused the 1st time because my Japanese garden was not considered to be a "green" area)

I bought Notion SLE in January 2011, played with it on my test score (I use the piece of Dvorak, from the new world to do my test) and trash it.

I was waiting for Logic X hopping that it will includes Expression Mapping like in Cubase.

Being very dispointed with Logic X  and having time left I  start to look at MuseScore, Finale, Sibelius and Overture on my MBPR

This week I have spend 95 % of my time on the buiding site to watch what they are doing, they made so many error, lying, changing there parole, that now I am on the buiding site from 8 am to 5pm until it's end.

Now you now everithing !

Cyril

@William said:

 Ricardo

Those sound very good to me.  The clarinet is excellent - I have no  criticisms. On the bass trombone maybe more breaths, because if you've ever been playing next to one, you'll notice it takes a huge amount of air to create those low notes, especially with crescendos.  So if the samples emulate that it makes it sound more natural.  But it does sound very good as it is. 

One other thing I noticed is something that I also have difficulty with and have no clear solution - when you switch to a crescendo sample, the overall amplitude of the note is different than the mf or p sample, resulting in an artificial sudden change.  This is obviously because the recordiong had to be made at the loudest volume that the crescendo reached, which is lower than the mf or p samples.  So some way needs to be found to equalize those levels, which I know is not easy.  Maybe you can figure out something there.  One thing I've thought of but never done is to reduce the dynamic range of the crescendo sample a little so that it matches better at the very start the level of the softer surrounding notes and then does not go so loud as to become unuseable.  DG might have an idea on that as he always has many solutions to various problems.    But anyway it all sounds very good in general.   

 Thank you William, when I done this piece with bass Trombone it was a very long time ago. So I took that as consideration, because in another forum I had the same type of criticism, like the breaths and a bit unnatural and artificial crescendos. That is true and I think developing pfp samples for bass trombone would be great if you want that 'piano to forte then to piano dynamics'. 

In the bass Clarinet there are 2 layers with pfp and some of the  other dynamics, so you have more options to go like instead of going for piano, you have some sort of mp or mf. The Bass Trombone is a diferent case, which I'm trying to get an hold of. I have so much to learn about VSL and its techniques and tips. I'll take that tip of reducing the dynamic range in mind.

In the meanwhile, I did another test with Bass Clarinet and bass Trombone and I understand what you said clearly and it sounds a bit artificial, the dynamics, maybe it was the way I used it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2738795/Bass%20Clarinet%20and%20Bass%20Trombone%20Duo.mp3

Thank you very much for the criticism William!

Ricardo

 Sorry for the argument Cyril. 

Ricardo, the Bass trombone I have found very difficult to do dynamics with so you are not alone there.  I think it is because of the extreme change in timbre the instrument has - from a deep dark bass in p to an extreme bright harsh edge in ff.  So dealing with it in sample performance involves some compromises perhaps.  I remember changing dynamics on some lines to a slightly louder or slightly softer layer simply because there was too much of an obvious leap from one dynamic to another even on dynamic samples, and crossfading would not work.  If one analyzes the instrument, it could be justified to do more dynamic samples of something like bass trombone and fewer of something like flute simply because of the extreme timbral change in dynamics.  (Not that I would want fewer flute samples though...)