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  • A dream...

    I have a dream !

    A  «notation software» made by YOU wonderful VSL Team…
    A software to Write Music and perfectly adapted to the VSL Library…

    I feel that you are close to such a thing !

    I have a dream

    Thanks VSL


  • Why do you think they are close to such a thing?


  • Would be the logic continuation...

    Alain



  • Dorico, Notion, Sibelius, StudioOne, Cubase, Staffpad VE Pro, Synchon, VI, Kontakt Win11 x64, 64GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, August Forster 190
  • You beat me to this Bill.  I was just coming back to post that link which perhaps you posted in the Finale forum? 

    At any rate, I would be interested in a notation software that worked seamlessly with VSL.  It seems that Finale is invested in Garritan.  I'm not sure what Sibelius uses, but there always seem to be little quirks when it comes to using VSL. 

    We'll stay tuned. 


  • Bill,

    Thanks, I'm also a fan of N3, ...4

    So,

    I really hope that this project will serve Professional with professional tool !

    Just an example : «independent Time Signature» was present as feature in N2 !

    They have removed this because it was mixing up some users !!!!

    Notion could be one of the best composer (writer) of music tool...

    Hope Steinberg project will consider the best for professional !

    Will be interesting to follow that !

    Thanks

    Alain


  • Notion 4 is a big disappointement for me, buggy concerning vsl, and with no real improvements... And Notion team obviously don't take care of customers, i quit Notion forum and Notion facebook because of the censorship Was thrilled by the steinberg announce, vsl expression maps work well withnvst on cubase, having a good notation editor in these daw will be great

  • It's interesting how this subject just keeps coming up. I know in the past this discussion has sort of ended with someone saying the market just isn't big enough, but with big-name notation software developers closing their doors thus minimizing competition, and with increased interest over time, who knows? VSL is certainly the sample developer that's closest to having an all-brand-name package to get you from first inspiration straight to final recording and a notation system is pretty much the only thing missing.

  • Not only the sample delopper, also a great software maker, when you see he quality of VI pro and V Suite, VSL is far away from other's sample developpers. With this level of quality, a VSL Notation software will be a killer.

  • If VSL were to decide to go in such a direction, they would undoubtedly do it very well.

    But, to once again raise some key issues (different from the market size one):

    To ask a pointed practical question or two: For VSL to create such a thing, what sort of additional staffing would be required?  Every new project requires employee resources, and starting a notation program from scratch would likely require considerable employee resources.  How would that additional staffing impact cash flow?  Since any revenue stream from a new notation program would not begin for some time, does the existing VSL revenue stream/cash flow allow for such an expansion without hurting the company?  Side note: bankruptcy often traces to too rapid over expansion.

    Obviously I do not expect VSL to post anything at all to this (questions raised deal with proprietary information), but I raise the questions simply to indicate that wishing for VSL to do product "X" is by no means as simple as it sounds.  Note: one of the real positives IMO regarding VSL is they do seem to have a long-term vision: witness the now reached long-term goal of creating MIR, and now MIR Pro, for example.  As customers, we can certainly express desired wishes, but OTOH we must also realize that in terms of an overall business plan, VSL has clear reasons for doing what they do, as well as not doing what they choose not to do.

    Wisdom would likely be to follow the Cubase situation and see what develops there over the next couple of years.  Here's another thought: If Steinberg succeeds in creating a fully integrated DAW/notation program, for VSL to seek to be a new player in that field in potentially the same time frame, the net result could be real iffy for VSL.

    Again, there simply are many factors for a company to consider when customers are asking that company to branch out in a new direction.


  • noldar12 makes some good points.  I don't think it would be a winning proposition for VSL to develop a notation program.  Rather it would be smart to "team up" with maybe the new Steinberg developers to come up with something that integrates seamlessly with VSL.  That way the companies' investments in the products that undoubtedly have different markets are better placed.  Think of how many non-VSL users might be interested in a Steinberg notation software (assuming it's a competitive product with the current players).  Likewise think of how many VSL users who could care less about a notation product.  


  • I share this dream..  I don't know if it will be a reality, but if one goes back to announcements Herb made when VSL first began a large scale plan was outlined that seemed to imply that such a thing would be part of it..  

    Imagine a notation software that can pre render a midi map prior to play back that makes full and accurate use of such things as the extensive dynamic samples from the full libraries..  Write a hair pin that the software will interpret to select the correct length of crescendo or descrescendo sample and then further tailor it with time stretching to fit the music..  and this is just one possibility of many.

    Personally I expect very little from the notation capabilities of Steinberg, Cakewalk and the like..   especially for any real professional use.  Quite frankly I find Sibelius too limited to handle many musical situations..

    With all its flaws if anything ever happened to Finale I feel we'd be in some dire straights unless something else stepped in to fill the void..


  • jc5, for better or worse, what you have outlined provides the reason why many work first in a notation program and then import the notation file into a sequencer.  Each type of program does some things very well and other things not so well.

    OTOH, Steinberg could come up with something, and in terms of notation, even now they are far ahead of Sonar.  While I still use Sonar, Sonar has not updated their notation in over a decade, and it cannot even correctly notate some very basic notation requirements (like triplets).

    As for writing a "hair pin", how would the software interpret that?  Perhaps the composer wants to use velocity x-fade, or perhaps a straight expression pedal increase (cc 11), depending on instrument and/or desired sound, or even a mix of both.  Depending on the passage it might be a short crescendo going from pp < ff or a long crescendo going just from mp < f, etc., etc., etc.  Each one will likely be very different.  IMO, there really is no way around detailed editing to get the desired effect.


  • Love the discussion - and would love an awesome editor that delivers the seamless experience that I think should be achievable with 21st century technology. A related interim question though. I am just about to get back to a project started on Sibelius 6 and VSL solo strings some time ago - what does everyone think is the best editor for a string quartet at the moment. Any clear winners over Sib 6? I could switch from Sibelius now if I wanted as I am at "restart" juncture anyway. Cheers, Rangi.

  • Neither VSL or any other lib dev will do notation. Why? At the risk of ruffling feathers... it's not the direction of many/most of YOU dear users... And if you want it (as I do) you'd have to make a LOT more noise.

    I would dare say that most of the people here (and other orchestral lib users) no longer use VSL for 'mock ups'... but rather as the end product. Therefore the most 'life like' results are of paramount importance. If you hear a really decent VSL rendering it's 100% sure that the source MIDI would bear only a passing resemblance to the notation one would give to players for a 'real' performance.

    So where things are now is that we have all these one note special purpose libs and patches for glissandos, brass rips, tremolos, etc.which have no 'MIDI' or notation value at all... they're just triggered FX. Because there's no way with standard MIDI to do them.

    Now Steinberg has a good part of the solution: VST Expression. But who really supports it? No one. So things are stuck.

    It would be a -fraction- of the effort for VSL to incorporate Steinberg's tech into their lib as it would be to create a notation program. Maybe that would kick other vendors Sibelius/Finale? into supporting it as well. I wonder how Logic would feel about it.

    It would also require VSL to create an UBER MATRIX for each instrument that incorporates -all- the gestures a real player uses in a typical performance so that one could put a complete performance on a single MIDI track... and thus a single notation staff. If you think Dimension Strings is RAM hungry, I can only imagine how much RAM even a few such instruments would require. Perhaps the answer likes in virtual instruments

    Iifn short, one must currently choose between 'realism' and notation. There is no middle ground. And the user-base (and the marketplace) have spoken... they care less and less about music based on traditional skills so I seriously doubt whether such a 'dream' will ever be realised.

    Within a few years, I doubt there will be more than a few commercial 'composers' who even read music well enough to prepare a traditional score. Sample-based DAW productions will be the normal end product and when/if 'real' players are required, one will simply hire a new breed of 'MIDI Copyists' to create an approximation in notation.And slowly, the whole concept of 'orchestration' will die because no one will give a 2nd thought to what is actually playable... Sort of like that guy Conlon Nancarrow and his Music For Player Pianos.

    As a result, these MIDI Copyists will be well paid and people will guard referrals -very- carefully because they will be expected to translate DAW/MIDI renderings that will often contain -many- unplayable passages. And eventually? As samples get even better and the translations to notation become ever more disappointing, the whole idea of translating -anything- generated in a DAW to notation will be dropped.

    ---JC


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    @Suntower said:

    Within a few years, I doubt there will be more than a few commercial 'composers' who even read music well enough to prepare a traditional score. Sample-based DAW productions will be the normal end product and when/if 'real' players are required, one will simply hire a new breed of 'MIDI Copyists' to create an approximation in notation.And slowly, the whole concept of 'orchestration' will die because no one will give a 2nd thought to what is actually playable... Sort of like that guy Conlon Nancarrow and his Music For Player Pianos.

    As a result, these MIDI Copyists will be well paid and people will guard referrals -very- carefully because they will be expected to translate DAW/MIDI renderings that will often contain -many- unplayable passages. And eventually? As samples get even better and the translations to notation become ever more disappointing, the whole idea of translating -anything- generated in a DAW to notation will be dropped.

    ---JC

    This is already the norm for feature films.. You get the MIDI transfer guy (or gal) and the orchestrator, and these may or may not be the same person, depending on what country (and of course budget). Orchestration is no longer what it used to be; it is now more a case of "make it sound the same as the demo, only better". Of course the sang is that many film composers don't think about how many players they have whilst they are plunking down pads and layering countless lines over the top, so there have been many times where a composer will say "I had to add a bit of the samples in, because the players couldn't really get the sound I wanted", not realising that it was not the players' fault, but their own, in not writing for players instead of  a computer.

    DG


  • Yeah, I figured... my main point is that 'notation' is kinda like real 'printing'... it's soon going to be something that people have done for vanity reasons (like expensive invitations to weddings with raised printing.) People will pull out a 'real' orchestra just for TV shows to look cool... just as today, I get asked to bring a 'vintage' archtop guitar or double bass to fit the 'ambience' of a particular show.

    I totally want what the O/P 'dreams' of. Just never gonna happen. The market has spoken. And listening to most movie scores these days I gotta say, it made a poor decision. :D


  • Suntower, you raise some interesting points.

    If things continue going in the same direction as they are now, eventually, who would even be able to play an instrument well enough to creeate the high quality samples?  As samples/midi continue to garner a greater share of business, what will be the incentive to learn to play an instrument well?  It is not as though the symphonic concert world is in that great shape either.

    I could see a type of "vicious circle" resulting.  As orchestration skills decline, there is less need for "real players" and as the ability of "real players" declines, there is less reason to orchestrate for them.

    Anyway, just a couple of thoughts.


  •  I've written a number of thorny posts here since I bought a VSL lib simply because I believe that as the link between MIDI/notation and samples becomes more tenuous the -quality- of music is declining... or at least morphing into something quite 'non-orchestral'.

    I can count on the fingers of one hand recent movie scores where I can tell the guy knows how a violin really works... Rarely does one hear even the basic double stops or other idiomatic devices Beethoven or Hindemith would use intuitively---because they knew how to fiddle.

    (Last score that really knocked me out? 'The Artist'... the guy just -channeled- Ravel and Jazz Age Orchestra. It's really -amazing- but no one notices it because of all the 'silent movie' thing.)

    My point is that I can almost always tell a guy who's roots are in DAW... or a rocker turned 'composer' because the music is simply not 'genuine'. It always sounds truly unnatural to me because it sounds like what it is---a rich kid who hired an orchestra. I mean... back in the day, you didn't even get your music played by a lotta guys without having some -chops-.You just wouldn't hear a full orchestral rendering of anything that didn't have at least a basic level of harmony/counterpoint/etc. The effect of hearing 40 violins playing a bunch of trivial lines... as in most video games... is disconcerting for me because it wouldn't happen in real life if you take my meaning.

    I'm sure that sounds insufferably elitist, but my point is that VSL is itself changing -music- into something quite different. I bought into it for one purpose (mock up) but really its market is quite something else. Not being judgmental, just telling you how I see it... and why 'the dream' will never happen.

    ---JC


  • Those are some pretty dire predictions but I do see your point.  It does seem to be the way music is going at least in the film industry.  However one huge "lobbying" group that would try to prevent this is the educational system both primary and secondary.  Think of all the music professors who have to justify their existence and what such an upheaval would cause. 

    I do realize academia and the marketplace are two different and often at odds with one another.

    After watching the artist videos on the homepage I concede you're right, however I think this really only applies to film and TV music.  So I guess the reason that industry would dictate such a shift in the way people work is 1) lack of traditional music education for most modern composers or 2) modern composers aspire to only be film/tv composers?