Hallo Beat,

welchen Workflow würdest Du für VSL Special Edition, VE, VI vorschlagen, da es bei mir Probleme gibt, die einzelnen AU und VST Plug Ins in VE zu benutzen. Ich habe wenig VSL Erfahrung bisher und verbringe viel Zeit am Rechner um für mich sinnvolle Arbeitstechniken im Vorfeld zu checken,

Was wäre dagegen zu sagen, alle Instrumente Logic intern zu verwalten, sprich, alle VIs in individuelle Kanäle in Instrument Strips zu ziehenm um die volle PlugIn (VST, AU) Kompatibilität zu haben. Möglicherweise gibt es ja doch eine Möglichkeit, diese in VE zu installieren

Vielleicht würdest Du mir einen Tip geben können, was Workflow, Speicherverwaltung etc bei der Benutzung von VE vs Logics Environment angeht.

Danke

Viele Grüße

TIm

Hi Tim B, 

The forum language is english, thanks for sticking to it. This way everybody can profit from questions and answers [:)]

To answer the question: The advantage of working with VE (PRO) is that you have all instruments in ONE host that also allows you to mix and work with various templates. 

On OSX, we´re using AU Plug-ins exclusively in VE (PRO). Bear in mind that sequencer-specific plug-ins will only be available in the given sequencer.  

Furthermore: Not all plug-ins are available in 64-bit yet, so please check that you are using VE (PRO) in the right mode. 

Best, 
Paul 

@Tim B said:

...Was wäre dagegen zu sagen, alle Instrumente Logic intern zu verwalten, sprich, alle VIs in individuelle Kanäle in Instrument Strips zu ziehenm um die volle PlugIn (VST, AU) Kompatibilität zu haben?

Hi Tim

Beside the advantages which Paul explained above: VE isn't necessary. I often use the VIs within Cubase without any VE - just as a "normal" VSTi. You also can route and mix all the signals within Logic because Logic is a host as well. Maybe it is easier for you to start without VE for getting more practice with the VI. If you are closer to the VI and its use you will maybe lucky also "to have VE handy".

So for starting with VSL...

I propose to create a sort of basic organisation within the VI for a faster workflow. This allows you to exchange instruments and to create the wanted template in a short time.

Further, if you got a mixer setup within logic - let's say for the strings - save it for a next project.

The recipe is to think in modules which will allow you to be fexible and to collect orchestra templates in a short time later on.

But one thing you always should take into account: Getting such modules and Presets needs time. So be a bit patient. Don't forget that you can listen today to demos which are produced by members with 10 and more years of experience (...including me).

Later on you can use these presets and experiences within VE.

As I mentioned above: An advantage of VE is the creation of whole orchestra modules (pdf) >> load them and play it just with the correct mix and samples inside VE...

Followed by: the creation of a whole orchestra with such modules... Those modules are easier to handle with VEs than with just Logic.

(The link above - a pdf - shows the idea of such modules but it also gives you some hints how to get a good mix of an orchestra. It probaly helps to understand the meaning of VE in a better way as well. Unfortunately it is advertising in the mean time. Sorry for that reason. But I don't have another and neutral paper about this theme.)

Hope this helped a bit

Beat

Dear Paul,

allright. Thanks for the 64/32 bit idea. Good info. I have some 3rd party stuff I still think to be related to, but need some support on getting into the VSL surroundings.Watching a lot of tuts and getting on youre nervs.

I would love to use all of your offerings  as I am very interested in finding my way in combining tech and artistic means. I record a lot of music for my living and on the other side to keep it alive I play a lot. I do this quite a while and some voices inside me talk about writing my own stuff, which I always did but not to a very exposed manner. I feel, with VSL it gets to a stage to really get into hearing an amazing sonic artistic result, which posively feedbacks the process of improvement of your own writing on a project.

So...

I am very keen on dwelving into this world but see myself hanging a lot on computer issues to find the best way to bring everything together. So first things first...

Thanks again for your work on this amazing library and kind support!

Best regards

Tim

Dear Beat,

Yes I spent the whole night building an orchestral template in Pro Tools, which I wanted to give a shot as well. The problem was the Third Party PlugIn implementation, which brought me to this decision. I don´t care too much on checking as being part of our profession, I want to keep it flexible, finding best workaround scenario here, knowing the key points,

AND...:

I now have a template which works fine for classical writing!! Okay so far.

I think the VE5 idea that you are pointing to has a lot of advantages, time saving and so on, by using modules which only have to be loaded once. Thats cool. I have to try the modules out (supporting 64/32 bit), but have to work with my beloved PlugIns I am used to now, although it is intended to check out more of the VSL mixing stuff in the future, but my setup has to work for me now in connection with the implementation of VSL. I cannot switch my whole thing here at once.

I try to give everything a shot as I am amazed of hearing my compositional ideas and sketches via VSL. That is exciting and self propelling to me with that sonic results.

 So - I am very glad on your views and insights as experienced users Thanks again to Paul´s  and your oppinions and energy spending some time here with my issues... ;-)

BTW: nice material of yours. Cool! I saw a thread mentioning you skipped an idea of writing a manual? Would be a shame, what I saw so far.

I feel the interconnection of technical demands - especially software & hardware communication (LAN, MTC, Audio routings, Synchronization, PlugIns etc. ) - is important for the future. None of us only uses one tool and the inerplay of these is very time consuming as I experience my whole professional live and finding myself sitting on the screen being solitude sometimes as one can be in those moments :-). We all know that, I guess.

It is not the issue of the individual developers to take care on others products, this is quite clear to me. VSL does an amazing job as I know about recording techniques and classical music production being Tonmeister myself. What I hear is great although I only use the basic package (SE 1 PLUS)

I once tried to synchronize two computers with Logic and ProTools etc., all that ideas should be merged and find a way in a manual which spans the technical and artisitical combination of our work. A useful focus in my oppinion for such a manual would be that these amazing technical achievements are regarded to be "only" the vehicle for creative artistic work on top.

I would love to have a section on  the differences on how the intended music is produced. Do you sketch it on paper, do you play it directly into your system via Midi, how do you come close to what you hear in your mind etc...

Allright!

Again Thank you very much!

Best regards

Tim

...just installed VE Pro 5. Are there any Pro Tools, Logic Project Templates out there...?

Thx

T

Greetings Beat, I was wondering if you have any plans of a tutorial about creating an orchestral mix with MIR PRO?

@Another User said:

I was wondering if you have any plans of a tutorial about creating an orchestral mix with MIR PRO?

Hi Sami

Drag & Drop the instruments into MIR - play them - the mix is done... [;)]

More serious: What do you want to get with such a tutorial? What could be the aim(s)?

All the best

Beat

Hello Beat. My main problem is that I'm much more of a composer than a recording engineer, so while MIR pro is absolutelu a lifesaver for me with all it's capabilities, there are some issues I can't seem to get just right. The biggest concern for me is without a doubt EQ:ing. When listening to a high-quality symphonic recording, all the instruments have such a clear own space and are so beautifully hearable even in louder passages. I think this has a lot to do with getting a functioning EQ setting for all the instruments. Maybe the right compression for each instrument/group is also an important factor.

Then another thing is that I think I can get a pretty good volume balance between different instruments, but still while I think instruments A and B are in good balance and same with instruments B and C, might the balance between A and C be a bit of and so on. Well, three instruments are not that many and are usually manageable, but when there are much more of them these issues begin to pop up. I think that correct EQ:ing would be of big help with this problem too.

So my ultimate desire would be to learn how to get from a decent mix with all the instruments placed conveniently on a MIR pro stage to a final result sounding like high quality professional symphonic recording.

@Another User said:

Then another thing is that I think I can get a pretty good volume balance between different instruments, but still while I think instruments A and B are in good balance and same with instruments B and C, might the balance between A and C be a bit of and so on.

Use the VST-MIR in your DAW and within the DAW the "Track-Automation". This means: Vary the volume over the time of instruments or of whole

groups of instruments for getting the correct balance between of them.

Scoring programs don't offer such a track automation I believe. In that case you can export a midifile for producing the music within a DAW

(Logic, Cubase.) High demands need the corresponding software...

Hope that my proposals can improve your mxes a bit

All the best

Beat

Something that seemingly got lost during the last few years: In the early days of audio engineering, the guy who was in charge for the job known as "mixing" nowadays was called "balancing engineer". For a good reason! In the end, it's all about a good balance between all the signals - and this balance is a moving target. In other words: Don't forget that it's so easy nowadays to automate levels (and everything else) within your DAW. Every mixer worth his/her money will fine-tune a mix with great care, and it may happen that almost all faders will move constantly all the time.

BTW ... don't look at it as an "engineering task". It's much more like a contemporary variety of a conductor's job.

Kind regards,

Thank you so much for the instructions. I'm sure they will be extremely helpful. Beat, this might be a stupid question, but when you say the bass don't need a cut in low frequencies, do you mean the double bass or the bass instruments of different choirs in general?

@Sami Boman said:

Beat, this might be a stupid question, but when you say the bass don't need a cut in low frequencies, do you mean the double bass or the bass instruments of different choirs in general?

Hello again

I wasn't enough precise so this isn't a stupid question my dear.

Yes I mean the Double Bass or more in general: Those instruments which are playing the lowest tones in a piece.

Often the Cellos play unsison with the double bass but +1 octave. So it isn't a must to cut the cellos in this case...

I personally always cut low frequencies of instruments which are not playing the lowest notes.

Why all this cutting-stories? The aim is that each instrument get its section within the frequency range...

Cutting the lows of each instrument opens room (a frequency range) for instruments which really need it.

At the same time you see that this simple cutting procedure could be improved.

But with this little "cutting-effort" (just cutting lows) you already get much better results.

Further: Within a mix we have also the possibility to pan between two channels and further to use different dephts.

So a mix can use all these parameters for being transparent as result.

Knowing this it would be better for example to place the 2nd violins on the right and not "behind" the 1st violins...

If you are composing for film, CDs and the internet (for mixes) you can take this circumstance into account. 

Try to arrange your pieces not only in the composer's or conductor's view. Use the view of the mixing engineer as well.

That means for example: no chords in the low end, not more than one melody in the lows, also compose for instruments on the right, on the left, in the depth and in the front and so on...

In other words: Compose for the mix as well >> As an example:  http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vi-tips--tricks-3/index.php (no. 27)

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Another tip for getting transparent mixes...

Listen to a lot of orchestras and mixes until you find the one you would like to copy its sound.

Observe the depths which are used / try to draw the stage with the instruments / try to find out more about the sound of the used instruments.

After all you can try to achieve a similar mix. Even if you will never reach your reference you will make steps foreward in mixing orchestras.

As an example:

This is the newest mix of the "Celtic Woman" (CD Home for Christmas).

The mix was done in 2012. We get a symponic orchestra with harp, choire, percussion and a sort of soloists (singers)

The music style is somthing between classical music, light music and pop. So the sound is probably a bit tuned compared with classical mixes.

Nevertheless, we use this tuning aspects as well with our samples - specially when we compose for films etc.

So it isn't important whether you like the music style or not. The example stands just for observing the mixing aspects.

• What about the depths (which instrument sounds where)
  
• What about left and right
• What about the sound of the strings? bright? dark?
• How do sound the brass instruments? What about left and right with the brass?
• Where are the singers placed.
• What about the bass? Does it sound strong and powerfull? Why? Plays it alone in its range?
• What about the timpany? does it support the bass voice or not really?
  
• Does the mix sound clear and transparent? Also during tutti parts? If yes, why?
  

HAPPY NEW YEAR within your own mixes... [:D]

As I mentioned above: Try to find an orchestra as I offered above but with your favourite sound

                                     and try to transfer all the mixing aspects into your mixes.

This is quite a lot of work but it will lead to better mixing results in any case.

I wish you lot of success

Beat