@Beat Kaufmann said:

Hi Mats

I assume you didn't understand my post...

So even harsher as well:

A) Congratulation: Super idea to make a new interpretation (of Grieg's Holberg Suite). Nothing against it!!!

B) Unfortunately bad played or/and mixed - not as an Orchestra sounds (my opinion).

So...

The idea of A) suffers because of B)

That's all

Beat

Thanks Beat

You’re absolutely right; i didn’t fully understand your post, now I do.

You simply don’t like my version. That perfectly fine with me.

I think we may have completely different view, approach and interest when it comes to using the VSL program.

I fully respect your version even if I think it’s not musically interesting. 

Keep up the good work

All the best

mats

Hi Mats,

  I'm sorry, but you completely misunderstood me. It may be my fault, since I'm Spanish and sometimes find it difficult to speak in English. But I really don't know how to put it clearer.

@Another User said:

 

 In fact I had problems convincing 3 of them that it was programmed, I had to show them the Cubase and VSL files, but then they where super experts and excellent artists 😉

   well, please, forgive me, but you don't give them actually much credibility, even if you trust them blindly. I also can't grasp why you say you're not interested in sounding, if not real, at least "sonically convincing", and at the same time keep making those affirmations. It seems quite incoherent to me and makes difficult for me to understand your claims. Also, you should not be surprised by Beat's point of view and suggestions, when we read all the time in your videos questions like "What version is this? A traditional with live musicians or mine?". Please, believe me, in the present state of your version it's ridiculously evident, and that's what we have kindly tried to tell you so far. Maybe Miki and Beat aren't either "real artists" or "super experts"... but, the only thing I still could tell you is, again, I wouldn't take their words lightly.

  Anyway, if you're satisfied with what you've achieved with your project... well, at least you're satisfied!! Honestly, that would be enough for me, so in that case, congratulations for your satisfaction... And please, excuse my comments if you really didn't want to know our opinion (sorry but I didn't realized you didn't ask for it in your first post) although you should understand this is likely to happen when you're posting in a public forum.

  About being new, and original (sometimes even at the cost of everything else), well, that's another story I will never ever be able to understand, Mats. You already have unique fingerprints, you don't strive for that. It's a given, you are original, whether you like it or not, want it or not; no need to listen to 100 recordings to figure out what hasn't been done yet to come up with anything else. It's a very old tune I've already heard a thousand times, some people even going to the extreme of saying they didn't care about other interpretations; you should, or you couldn't even know there's something "new" or "original" in your version, because all this is nothing but just a comparative judgment. So, even if you want to sound "new", it's not inteligent to disrespect the "old", for without it you would not even know what "new" means. It's like when avant-garde composers disrespect the classical tradition pretending not to use any cliché... I couldn't imagine a more restrictive, stupid cliché than that!! So, similarly, I think when one tries to be systematically "original" (my definition of originality is quite different, but I understand what you mean), as you did in your Grieg, there's every possibillity that you end up with a caricature. And I give you it could be very provocative, that's good, but then we come again to the point: for me it's hard to hear even that supposedly provocative interpretation in what I could hear from your videos. I'm sorry. 

  In any case, as I told you, I welcome you to the forum and I assure you I am grateful for having the chance to listen to classical performances in this forum and will be glad to listen to your future projects.

@Beat Kaufmann said:

Hi Mats

I assume you didn't understand my post...

So even harsher as well:

A) Congratulation: Super idea to make a new interpretation (of Grieg's Holberg Suite). Nothing against it!!!

B) Unfortunately bad played or/and mixed - not as an Orchestra sounds (my opinion).

So...

The idea of A) suffers because of B)

That's all

Beat

I don't understand this at all.  The sections of this I heard sounded excellent.   Beat, I suspect you are just pissed off.   Understandably, since Mats said your MIDI performances are boring.  I don't agree - I have always liked what you do.  Anyway, this seems to be a bit distorted by the interactions here.  One other thing - I could not find any simple straightforward performances of the entire piece, at any point.  Just little blips of music in between lectures.  So maybe that is affecting my reaction.   Here, on this Forum, people need to post MUSIC. Then, you don't need to blabber on and on about how wonderful and brilliant you are.  Just post the music and let IT do the talking. 

 If you wish to do an alternative new version of a piece and not interested in it sounding real,  then the VSL library was perhaps the wrong sounds to use, because using such an authentic library, even with your interpretation is still about 90% authentic, and so still sounds nearly real, but not quite.

You seemed proud that some people couldn't tell that it was computer based and not a real orchestra,  but I thought realism is what you were trying to avoid?

If you used totally synthetic sounds, then you would be creating something new, but by using VSL it can only be trying to sound real,  and you have achieved nearly real but not quite, perhaps it should have been less authentic, seeing that you were not trying for an authentic sound.

I thought you had a great project,  but I was a little disappointed that you didn't play any of it, and it all came from a midfile you downloaded off the internet - I reckon it would have been better if you hadn't mentioned that, because that statement for me, made you loose all credibility in what you were doing.

But well done for getting a commercial release on it.

Ok. Thanks:  "people need to post MUSIC and let IT do the talking"!  Given the signifcant amount of work/study (?) I, normally avoid to hijack a thread, but hey, selective quotation made this put me up here. 

Here is it. Form matters. As I try (another great song)!

http://redmist.mycloudnas.com/public/elgar%20-serenade%20-%20larghetto.mp3

Feedback welcome elsewhere!

Cheers,

 Martijn

@William said:

Here, on this Forum, people need to post MUSIC. Then, you don't need to blabber on and on about how wonderful and brilliant you are.  Just post the music and let IT do the talking. 

thanks for the comments, absolutely agree about the small "blips" of music, but it will be published by a record label and I’m not permitted to have whole versions on my site.

It will be on spotify  soon and the recording can be bought from lawo.no

And yes I’m sorry about the blabber I couldn’t stop it……. Kaufman is all over this site and I really didn’t like his comments about bad playing and mixing and "unhappy translation into the world of VSL", maybe his German to English translator is doing a bad job….its just words....

mats

@andyjh said:

 I reckon it would have been better if you hadn't mentioned that, because that statement for me, made you loose all credibility in what you were doing.

did you listen to what i said in the video? Absolutely every MIDI note is edited length, placement and velocity usually all of them.

and then its tempo VSL articulations, mixing............

Would it have been any better if i made a step input cubase file? Using a MIDI file saved me countless hours of unnecessary  work.

Hard to get that you really mean that....

hi thanks for your long and interesting post servandus

@Another User said:

It's a very old tune I've already heard a thousand times, some people even going to the extreme of saying they didn't care about other interpretations; you should, or you couldn't even know there's something "new" or "original" in your version, because all this is nothing but just a comparative judgment. So, even if you want to sound "new", it's not inteligent to disrespect the "old", for without it you would not even know what "new" means.

Make no mistakes about this.I am a musician (or at lest used to be) with too many years spent studying music……. 

The first time I played this piece myself, as a musicians, was 35 years ago.

I even transcribed the whole suite for other instruments, I have recorded it several times, heard it in concerts numerous times. 
And I started every programming period with doing the piece inside my head, simply conducting it. I did my homework![:P]

May I please ask everybody to stick to a polite, constructive tone in this discussion. TIA!

"I Can Do It My Way"

I lke that Mats. So many times one hears classical music, (lets say pre WWI for arguments sake) done over and over again, sounding the same. What is the point of that as an expression? Who cares in the end what the composer really wanted it to sound like, providing no notes are changed and adhering vaguely to appropriate light and shade dynamic markings etc?

As Vaughan Williams once said - 'Once my pieces are written, they have to make their own way out in the big wide world' - or words to that effect.

One of the things I never understand with samples and classical music done with them, is the constant efforts made by people to make it sound like a recording of the same work in a live situation. What is the point of that? 

Many people will never be able to work with a live, professional orchestra. If it's their own composition, they can make sound anyway they want and it either stands up or it doesn't. If it's a performance of a classic work, then the same goes with whatever interpretation is put on it, providing it sounds good.

Peace be with you, guys!

The more I read, the more I get the impression that you are talking about different things.

Mats, I think it is not entirely clear in what way you want to be different (and in what way you don't).

A "traditional" interpretation of the piece would be faithfully sticking to each written note. By that, one wants to re-create what Grieg initially intended, even if every recording will sound different.

As you changed notes and articulations and even added parts that were not composed by Grieg, you may want to create some kind of re-invention or re-arrangement of Grieg's Work. Therefore you mentioned people like Vanessa Mae who also don't take Grieg's sheet music literally. Today there is no reason to criticize this approach.

But does it forcibly have to be boring to play a musical work in the way the composer has intended?

This reminds me of the different approaches when e.g. producing/staging an opera. Does the scene have to look like at Mozart's time, or do we have to translate it into the world of today? You won't find an answer that is valid for everyone.

What I still didn't completely understand is: Do you want your version to sound like it could have been played by real human musicians, or is this realism not part of what you wanted to achieve?

One could also use synthetic sounds or create a "collage" with snippets of recordings...
But the moment you choose an orchestral library to emulate the string ensemble intended by Grieg, you will automatically be compared to live recordings of "human" orchestras. And I agree with those who said they'd easily hear that your version was created by programming.

There are many types of listeners in this world. To judge if a production sounds realistic, everyone will rely on different criteria, different details of what we hear. Everyone has his own perception, nobody hears the entire reality.
(Does a child resemble his mother or his father? Ask ten people and you'll get ten completely different opinions.)
Even musicians with trained ears will hear real instruments, because this is what libraries are made of. But someone who is used to work with these libraries will hear with different ears than someone else. As you pointed out yourself: It depends on the listener's experience.

Regards,

Klaus

... and thanks to VSL for this forum! How many places on earth are provided just for the discussion of musical questions like this?

Klaus

... we could also look at it as the legal form of the (nowadays so popular) Mashups. :-)

@PaulR said:

One of the things I never understand with samples and classical music done with them, is the constant efforts made by people to make it sound like a recording of the same work in a live situation. What is the point of that? 

Thanks for the comment PaulR, I couldent agree more.
With this wonderful tool VSL it’s possible to do so much more, be creative, personal, bold, challenging………..
To me this sound alike, copying thing, have its purpose as an exercise, if for example you’re not familiar with classical music and don’t play an orchestra instrument yourself. t

To me it seems that this is what many peple do here and I think that fine, we all nead to practice [:)]But when you get a grasp of it I definitely think you should make something personal and “new” with it.

And to those that don’t understand what is new in my interpretation, that’s okay with me. I have no illusion that everyone will hear what I have done. Its al about listener expertise, personal preference, knowledge of music (styles) and performance tradition (to name a few things), and of course VSL skills.....  

matsc

I see now why you couldn't put the whole thing or large sections on because of the CD release.  Anyway, what I heard made me want to hear it all ! 

I don't agree with the negative comments, and from what I could hear found it very well performed and the mix sounded fantastic.  Especially the changes from solo to larger ensemble.  Also, what you mention about the music being the focus instead of the technology - that is the whole point of doing any of this!  I also like this because it is an artistic use of VSL instead of merely viewing it as a cheap substitute for a live orchestra, which is what many users assume it is.  The basic idea of orchestral sound controlled by one person is tremendously inspiring. Thoroughout all the history of music the continuing desire to increase the expressive power and musical range of one person has resulted in various instruments such as the piano in all its development, the pipe organ, and now the artistically refined sample library which VSL has developed. 

Hello to all here

Dear Mats

First of all: I am so sorry that I obviously triggered such a noise around the new Grieg here.

This wasn't the aim, sure!

I understand that you Mats - who did a great, hard and interesting job with new ideas, with a new approach and who further produced 4 videos for showing us the result even better - must be disappointed when after all these efforts the second feedback comes with (also) a negative content.

I admit that I do not listen with "neutral ears" to music which is produced with samples after all the years using samples as well.

This must be the reason, that I really was distracted by the playing technique so that the new interpretation got a second place.

So this was a honest feedback with no more intention, believe me. If you want to believe that I don't like your interpretation I leave it to you.

Now, without the intention to declare war on anybody here I've decided to explain with the mentioned example why I wrote the story about the "bad mix" and the "unhappy translation"

I take the very first part of the new Holberg (from Mats mp4)

The following things distracted me from the new interpretation:

06 - 14 seconds >> Melody: the long sustained notes sound without any feeling in my ears (new interpretation? unhappy translation?)

04 - 14 seconds >> Rhythm: "ta tata ta tata ta" sounds so close that one can make out unnatural "wha-wahs" of the hited strings...Rhythm closer than the melody? Why? (Mix)

24 - 26 seconds >> Trill: Does it stutter? In any case: Something went wrong or something covers it.

At 29 seconds >> The first Final Chord:

Nothing against the Chord itself, but the following notes start before the chord sound has finished.

This isn't possible because the musicians have to change the bow from the E- string (D probably played 3. Lage 4th finger) to the G-String (H probably played with the 2nd finger 1. Lage).

Even if you don't take the "String-finger-Lage-story" as an important one the real musician would make a short pause at that point - new interpretation or not...

So this was about the first 30 seconds of the "New Grieg" and my listening-experiences.

You may see all these things the other way round. Then it's OK as well.

But these matters lead me to say the things about mix and translation.

Accept it or not: I am one of your listeners; I was invited to listen to the Grieg. Unfortunately (from the view of today) I wrote a personal honest feedback.

Once more NOTHING against YOUR NEW INTERPRETATION !!!

Now, this is my third and last feedback about this theme.

I have nothing more to say than peace on earth, take it easy and go on with new interpretations.

If you can accept just a little bit my mentions above I would be delighted to help you for even better translations in the future...

and that's what I wanted to be - already in this case: A Help, dear Mats.

All the best

Beat

PS: You are right, my English isn't that good - it would be probably better by using Google's translation program [;)]

I don't really agree with that critique Beat.  You seem to be listening in a basically hostile way to pick it apart, trying to find each detail that you can ennumerate as wrong, but if you just start listening fresh, getting the whole impression of the music, you immediately hear a great deal of energy and expressive articulation that sounds very good in purely musical terms.   I simply did not react the way you are so fixated upon.  For example - you castigate the dryness of the fast accompaniment - and yet that is precisely what adds to the energy of this very energetic music.   If one compares this to the usual bad MIDI, with the common crudities encountered, it is so far above that, it is in another dimension.  So your open hostility toward this music  I find somewhat strange. 

Of course because of this fragmented presentation mixed with lecture it is difficult to evaluate because never can you sit down and just hear the whole thing straight through, which I always need to do.   

Thanks Beat for your post, and William and PaulR for the support

Much more articulated, Beat, and interesting to read.

The comments Bert have are fully valid if you think it’s important which, as you may guess, I don’t think it is, not to me. Some are about taste and some are about instrumental playability. When they are as constructive as this time I can understand them.
To me this is not a “war”, to me it’s an interesting discussion.

I think the comment from Beat is a very important knowledge:

“I admit that I do not listen with "neutral ears" to music which is produced with samples after all the years using samples as well.”

It’s what I wrote about being a (VSL) “nerd”, something that I could call myself. It can severely limits your musically and artistically. We listen to how it’s done more than what is done. And I do think this is something we all have to be constantly aware of.

Music first!

In my youth I did play cello and double base and I have a fair knowledge of how to play these instruments but I don’t put much attention on the instruments limits when working with VSL, I find it much more interesting to explore the possibilities.

I don’t compare myself in any way with Nancarrow but I think he can serve as an example. Hi wrote for the mechanic piano making music that was said to be impossible to play…..and then came a guy Yvar Mikashof and played it and other followed him. Expanding the expressiveness of the piano.
Technology has always changed art, and if there is an artform that desperately needs changes, its traditional classical music, that’s so encapsulated in its own beliefs and standards.

Most parts of my version of the prelude will be hard for real musicians to play, but to me it sounds really god and to me it’s musically interesting, which I think are two important things in music. When writing for living musicians I would put all attention to if was possible to play, when it comes to VSL, I don’t even think about it, why should I?

In my reference group one person sad my version could probably be played by (and then naming the most brilliant Norwegian violinist), but I’m not sure that this will be practicaly (financially) possible, as it would require a lot of ensemble practice time. Just listen to the accompaniment it’s very “detailed”. I don’t think, as a couple of guys have written, it’s about the tempo in the prelude. There are several versions recorded that is faster than mine.

I really appreciate Beat:s honest offer to help and I fully respect Beat:s ideas, but as I said musically and how we work with VSL, I think we are on opposite sides (I’m repeating myself again….). And I think that’s great; there are so many different sides to music…..

all the best

matsc

PS sorry about the italics, wasent possible to change that........................

Hi Mats

Thanks a lot for your kind words!

Kind Regards

Beat