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  • Solo Strings vs ''Group'' Strings

    Hello everyone. I have SE and SE + and i want to upgrade soon. Maybe it's a noob question, but there are some things that i don't understand about the difference of solo strings and ensemble strings ( like orchestral strings )... What is the difference between orchestral strings and solo strings? If i take 8 violons of solo trings and put them in Mir Pro and humanize them ( change a little bit the volume, the velocity, ect ) will this give me the same results as if i take a pre ensemble of violin in orchestral strings? If we're not talking about computer power ressources needed, will the result, the sound, be the same? I know that appassionata and chamber strings have their own sound and ''color''... Thank you very much in advance for your answer, it's a little bit confused in my head about the ensemble and solo trings...

  • One can go the individual route... the very entry level GPO can take advantage of that approach (the quality of that library is not at all in the same league as VSL, nor is it intended to be)... but for that approach to work each instrument must have its own unique samples.

    Otherwise, anytime you use the same sample multiple times on the same pitch you will get phasing.  The only way to avoid that in VSL would be to raise (or lower) the pitch of each individual part and then do a transposition back to concert pitch within the VI.  The further the transposition or pitch stretching, the more likely the sound of the sample itself will degrade.  This technique can be very important when creating a 2nd violin section, as it allows for unison parts with the 1st violin section, with the use of the same articulations since different samples are then being used (can be important with unison passages).

    In short, using the individual approach is simply not a viable option.  In theory, for a closer orchestral emulation, that approach would be correct.  But, for strings, on the VSL sample level quality one would need roughly (assuming sections of 16; 14; 10; 8; 6) 54 unique solo strings libraries with each one featuring a different player to avoid phasing (at full cost including mutes for each $71,280), the needed computer power to run 54 separate string libraries, and particularly the time to tweak each and every part in detail.  On top of that throw in the costs to produce such a project, and no real market for it...

    It simply will not happen.

    If you really want to, you could possibly explore creating up to about five parts (concert pitch, plus 1/2 step and whole step above and below concert pitch) as outlined above.  My own thought would be that creative time would be better spent elsewhere. 


  • Building an ensemble from a load of violin solos doesn't work, and trying to do it from the same violin sample would be just a waste of time IMO. Leaving aside all the phasing issues, there is something about the sound of all the players playing at the same time that can't (yet) be re-created by separate players added together.

    Audio Impressions tried to do this by recording violins in pairs, seated in a standard orchestra seating and with all different players and instruments, and even that didn't work. I'm sure that in time there will be some sort of modelling that may be able to create this "all together" effect, but it doesn't exist at the moment.

    DG


  • Wow. Thank you very much guys for your answers, it helped a LOT. ;)

  • But guys there is a thing i don't understand... What if i want to put 6 clarinets together??? Because in woodwinds ensemble there are only ensemble of 3 clarinets. I suppose that i can't use the same sample twice, for the same partition??? Thank you again for your time!

  • For 6 clarinets, I would do what I suggested above.  Write out both parts (3+3), do all the keyswitches (separate lines from the actual parts), and then when ready to record, transpose one of the parts (not the keyswitches) by a half-step and then adjust back to the correct pitch using the VI (note that the VI can adjust the pitches of the part while keeping the keyswitches correct).  That would solve any phasing problems, and give you six clarinets (2 groups of three).  However, note that it would be very unusual for an orchestra to employ 6 standard Bb clarinets.  Three is more the norm.  The standard VSL section sizes equal a fairly good-sized Romantic period orchestra.


  • and if you revert the phase(you can do that in Logic)  on the second instrument ? should not that fix the problem ?


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  • I guess they'd rather null in this case. On the other hand if you transpose the original part up and down and then invert the phase... I don't know then.


  • Normally you do not need to transpose up and down, you need just to invert ths phase


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" - 1 x 27" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D Dolby Atmos --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
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    @noldar12 said:

    For 6 clarinets, I would do what I suggested above.  Write out both parts (3+3), do all the keyswitches (separate lines from the actual parts), and then when ready to record, transpose one of the parts (not the keyswitches) by a half-step and then adjust back to the correct pitch using the VI (note that the VI can adjust the pitches of the part while keeping the keyswitches correct).  That would solve any phasing problems, and give you six clarinets (2 groups of three).  However, note that it would be very unusual for an orchestra to employ 6 standard Bb clarinets.  Three is more the norm.  The standard VSL section sizes equal a fairly good-sized Romantic period orchestra.

    Hello Vincent M

    Just a a small addition to Noldar12's instructions:

    The trick is that you play the same note (tone) but with another sample. This is correct so far.

    If you are using an SE-Library you need to transpose the midi-parts one whole note up or down and correct it then on the audio side back to the normal pitch.

    Why? The SE-Sample Libraries "only" come with new samples each whole note.

    BTW here you can listen to and read about this "unison-trick"

    Beat Kaufmann


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Vincent, Beat is right.  I somehow missed that you were using SE.  For standard/full libraries it can be done by half-step, since the full libraries have chromatic samples, but as Beat says, SE is sampled by whole steps, so a whole step difference is required in order to play back a different sample.


  • Thank you very much guys. But what is the difference between chromatic sample and whole note sample??? Does that mean that for the SE, the C and C# are the same notes but corrected with pitch? If yes, arghhh. That would mean that for one octave, the standard library have 12 ''unique'' sound, and the SE library only 7 real differents sounds? I suppose that it will do a BIG difference in sound quality ( i'm not talking about differents articulations )? Thank you again for your asnwers, very appreciated!

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    @Vincent M said:

    Thank you very much guys. But what is the difference between chromatic sample and whole note sample??? Does that mean that for the SE, the C and C# are the same notes but corrected with pitch? If yes, arghhh. That would mean that for one octave, the standard library have 12 ''unique'' sound, and the SE library only 7 real differents sounds? I suppose that it will do a BIG difference in sound quality ( i'm not talking about differents articulations )? Thank you again for your asnwers, very appreciated!
     

    There will be no difference in sound quality. What there will be is a slight timbre difference, but whether or not that matters to you only you can say.

    DG


  • Is it really a ''slight'' timbre difference? I didn't see this when i bought SE and SE+. Next summer i want to buy A LOT of standard and extended library instruments. I suppose that if there where no important difference between standard and SE library people would not buy standard library ^^.

  • Yes it is a slight timbre difference. I didn't buy the DVD Collections because they were chromatically sampled, I bought them because I needed the articulations that they offer. There are times when it can be noticeable, if you know in detail what the instrument sounds like at these pitches, but with the Strings library this is much less important than some of the solo instruments.

    DG


  • Thank you for your answers DG.

  • The overall sound of the four SE libraries is quite good (that is what I have started with as it was the only way I could afford a full VSL sound set-orchestra).  Having started to migrate over to some full libraries bit by bit, if at all possible, full is preferred.  The chromatic samples, to me anyway, do make a slight difference (and the instruments do sound closer to "real"), but more imporant are the many additional articulations.  With the additional articulations a much better emulation of any given instrument is possible.  Particularly with strings, one can better emulate what a player can really do with a bow (as a strings player, I really notice the difference).

    <edit> As a side note, one of the reasons I really appreciate VSL's strings over other company's offerings is the wide variety of bowing articulations (and offering the same articulations-with some exceptions-for each instrument).


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    @Vincent M said:

    Is it really a ''slight'' timbre difference? I didn't see this when i bought SE and SE+. Next summer i want to buy A LOT of standard and extended library instruments. I suppose that if there where no important difference between standard and SE library people would not buy standard library ^^.

    As am amateur for the last 25 years or so, I can say there's no difference. Maybe an engineer can tell the difference, but I can't. I upgraded my strings for articulations, and hope to do the same with my brass😊

    Let's face it: if you are trying to get work, then buy less: buy cheap frankly as they are just tools for you, and are appreciated in the industry. If you are like me and just want to make beautiful music, it's different - I'm sure a lot of 'composers' don't use a lot of samples, they get the job done and then the orchestra takes over. For me, I want my music, what I write, to be the end of it. I'm not trying to get some famous orchestra in a famous movie to record me. I want what I write to be beautiful, as beautiful as possible as a one-man-band. That's why all of my orchestra instuments are Vienna. It gives me a fighting chance.

    It's a question of priority, and if you think a famous orchestra will redo your 'demo', then go minimal for what your ear hears. If not, then upgrade.

    If you think you will have a Hollywood audience, then stick to SE and learn everything you can, both musically and politically. Someone will pay your way in that case, and give you a lot of instructions...

    Shawn


  • Thank you shawn for your answer. I don't talk english very well so i can't express myself like i want about your post. I understand your idea but i find it a little bit illogical. You say that a person who wants to be a pro as a composer, make a living with this, ect, should buy the mininum, or not ''invest'' in really pro samples like VSL standard library? I think the opposite way. I'm a perfectionist, and I want to recreate what i EXACTLY hear in my head. Standard library extended give me the chance to express myself and show to people my creativity, with all the subtilities and ''nuances''. This give me the chance to present professionnel demos, and professionnels demo are more enthousiastics for a future audience or contract or boss ect. I don't have an orchestra at my house, but with VSL standard extended i will be close to have it. ;) I think that most of the ''biggers'' compositers would see VSL full library like a jewelry. If not it is for me. ^`

  • Hi Vincent. My apologies-my post upon reading it must indeed sound illogical. I should give you my context - which is I think rather personal, not necessarily the right answer for you:
    First, I have no desire to enter the world of composing, say film music, in hopes that it will someday be played by an orchestra, for example. On the contrary, I very much hope that I can truly make memorable music ONLY with samples because that's what I have. Maybe the occasional singer or live guitar only...

    I've seen this sentiment expressed on VI/composer/etc. forums and the responses are almost always the same: professionals almost 100% believe that samples can never be used for more than anything but a demo or a mockup. In fact many places refuse to use the word "song" when someone showcases something they wrote for some reason. So that means such people would believe I am wrong or lost to try and actually make music with samples. 

    So to me, if you want to be a professional, you would be entering a world where whatever you write with samples will be and is expected to be rewritten - by human players. The reason I spent all I could afford on samples is because I truly hope to make
    an end product with my samples. But if I was a pro ii would probably be more fitting when just starting out to scatter resources more carefully, if that makes sense. 

    However, that says nothing about inspiration. If I was a pro AND made good money at it i would own the entire VSL library and others lol. 
    I hope my illogical post above makes a bit more sense now?
    Shawn