Another point.... I generally don't like bringing up perfect pitch as it comes off poorly to people. (despite the fact that people should simply be able to have an intelligable discussion about it) - But this is how I view this. I write on paper and hear it in my head performed as it should be. I hear a note, I see the note on the staff. I grew up with this mentality that a piano roll just work the same way. I feel like notation makes more sense contrapuntally to me... it's just better for how I learned (and how most composers learn, via notation) - so when I go to the computer to make a mock up for someone... I want it to do what I hear. It doesn't have to be a flawless interpretation of style... but it could at least perform the peice as close to a human performance as possible. VSL notation seems the way to accomplish this. - If not, I'll look for what will. But a VSL DAW without notation, to me... fine- it would be good... but still lacking what I think many want because it's the natural environment that so many are used to.

-Sean

So you agree with me, the notation program has to be at least as sophisticated as Sibelius to be of use to us, and just a score-editor alla Logic, whether it's there or not, it makes no difference. So either VSL develops/buys/rents a notation program in all its might for the proposed DAW, or as far as we're concerned they oughtn't include a substandard notator in there at all. I share the work-process you describe, that's why if VSL includes a sub-standard notator for this proposed DAW, I'll still be working in Sibelius first. However, if that's what's holding back VSL from developing a DAW, I'd say go ahead, and leave (sadly) the notator for later.

@Errikos said:

So you agree with me, the notation program has to be at least as sophisticated as Sibelius to be of use to us

No! lol - That's my fault... I made a 3x as long post... but in cutting down I left things out. I don't feel there would be a need. Just like Pro Tools has a BASIC Sibelius editor... if you want to do more, then export for Sibelius. VSL could do the same thing. The Music XML format would support this.

If Sibelius and Finale offer everything we need for notation in the printing sense... great... but they have no playback functionality and composers want notation software to have that. Being that these programs have only very basically addressed this, I'm saying that either VSL should make a basic notation editor tailored entirely to their library and the flexibility of that library with VI Pro - OR VSL should find a way to read Sibelius notation in real-time and essentially do the same thing. But as I think the latter is less likely for various reasons... and as others could benefit from a few of the basic core elements of these features, with a piano role instead... that it makes more sense for VSL to have a DAW with notation and piano roll editing, that accomplishes what were wanting.

So essentially I'm saying that VSL SHOULD include a sub-standard editor. Why would VSL want all the page design features of Sibelius? No way! lol - I just want a notation editor that will work with what VSL's articulations and VI Pro will allow for. Sibelius has a LOT more features than VSL is either capable of performing, or that VSL would even apply to. It would behove VSL to approach it with that paradigm. IMO anyway.

-Sean

O.K., based on what you said previously, the way you work, you'd still need Sibelius/Finale in order to properly compose, and subsequently go to the VSL DAW for MIDI work. So, I don't understand what you'd need a sub-standard notation editor in the DAW for, when your score would have been completed in SIbelius/Finale first, and then entered into the DAW in MIDI form.

As far as I'm concerned if VSL or anyone else wished to adopt my idea of a from-idea-to-media composition package, they should go all out and develop/obtain the most sophisticated notation program available. After all, why need to go somewhere else for parts and conductor scores? All-in-one and one-in-all [:)]

@Errikos said:

So, I don't understand what you'd need a sub-standard notation editor in the DAW for, when your score would have been completed in SIbelius/Finale first, and then entered into the DAW in MIDI form.

At least I can answer this one in a few words...lol

While notation is the 'natural enviornment' for me because I see the pitch I hear, etc... I still like to have playback while I compose.

Example: I have an orchestra. I want a crecendo in Vi I, tremlo that diminuendo's in Vi II, and different things going on in the other string voices... The more going on, yes the ability to imagine things like this is there... but I'd rather hear it any day so that I can listen very speficially for one voice to determine that I like something or want to change something about it.

The composing process is different for everyone... and that's only a small example of the different challenges I think people (who feel as I do) face without having a decent compositional notation enivornment. I guess I want improved notation playback more than anything. But I also like the idea of a little more general DAW from VSL, thus the this thread is still not entirely notation.

In the end, if somehow between VSL and Sibelius these things could be accomplished, GREAT! - I'd prefer sibelius in many ways. Sibelius has things like the 'idea' saver that VSL may not implement... etc. So yes, I would even prefer it be through Sibelius... the only reasons I avoid that mentality are that 1) I don't believe VSL and AVID will jump in the same bed and 2) Sibelius has such a bad history in playback performance that I can't see this changing anytime soon... unless VSL did it. (Besides, this started in a notation forum anyway, lol)

I got it... Sibelius in all it's beauty and functionality... but with no playback features at all... from the ground up, build the playback engine and midi articulation interpretation, etc to be tailored to VSL in articulations and in performance abilities, time-stretching, midi-crossfading (like the tremelo thing) and so on. THAT would be great! - I realize that people would say 'use notion' but notion has not accomplished this how I said. - Plus, I'm stuck with presets that I don't even like... it's so painful to set it up in a workable way... why? Because notation software features like Sibelius Sound Sets were not created with VSL in mind and they are violently unfriendly to trying to setup your own. It would take forever and if I make changes... even worse. I want notation, whether VSL or not, to automatically work with what I'm doing in VSL (at least as automatic or easily setup as possible).

I still have uses for a DAW in all honesty. So despite my love of notation... Many of the same features apply to a piano roll - this is another main reason why I feel that a VSL DAW makes more sense than approaching it just from the notation program or just from the DAW... Why change Cubase AND Sibelius (and notion, and pro tools, etc) to work better with VSL? Why change VSL to have to interpret things from each of these companies? It would be easier just to have a VSL DAW that handles notation for these orchestral instruments and handles the DAW functionality that VSL users need.

Any thoughts? Any other suggestions on this front? Features? I want to add more to the idea rather than debate the merits of any one idea. The more feedback or ideas for VSL the better. I would think anyway... lol

-Sean

P.S. On the Sibelius 7 thread people kept saying 'Come on VSL, chime in and give some feedback to us users, are we dreaming or could it be considered?' - I think some feedback from VSL would be nice. That and I wonder whether anyone from VSL read the 'Sibelius 7' posts also. Worst case, VSL hates the idea... I'd still like to know if there are any parts of this they'd consider or that at least appeal to them as something needing to be addressed.

I still don't understand how a reduced notator like those we've seen so far in DAWs will help you in the stage of composition (unless you're scoring Inception). I need the full capabilities of Sibelius - and more that it doesn't give - at the time of writing. So in that sense, proper playback at that time would be invaluable to me (maybe more than the DAW). My feelings which I expressed earlier this year, were that VSL were so close to a DAW (as opposed to notation) with their current product line; that's why I encouraged them to take the next logical step. Now if they wished to put the icing on the gestalt cake and provide us with a Sibelius like notator, that would be bliss, but it also would be a leap - which as much as I wish for it, I can understand it's out of their immediate know-how.

Also, if they took to heart what a few others and myself were asking them back in March and this DAW is currently in development, I realize they cannot announce it, so their participation in this or the other similar threads is not to be expected. However, if they have no intention of ever doing this, a little negative comment from the company here would save us all some time (see what I did there?[:)])

Now if you guys in VSL are already working on this DAW and are including a notator, please make it one that Stravinsky or Williams would be happy working with. Middle-earthers only need a sequencer, a mouse, and two digital turntables. We need a little more...

@Errikos said:

see what I did there?

lol, yes

I have three fairly simple points that I think will justify my reasoning...

Say that they make VE into a DAW or make a DAW in general. What daw isn't serve by having notation? Cubase and Pro Tools certainly have notation editors for a reason, people want them. Simply put, I would want one in a VSL DAW just the same.

Now that we've established that many DAW's have them... lets assume that the VSL DAW does also. If so, would you want it to be the exact same as the Cubase score editor? I wouldn't at all. Now, let's just say that having every Sibelius feature is not an option. It's either a Cubase editor, or one that has some of the basic Sibelius notation features that are most common in music (like slurs, hairpins, glissando's, etc). -- I'd like every Sibelius feature like you would... I simply think it's not neccesary for a DAW, but that if they did include notation, I'd like at very least more than Cubase's editor... as I described.

Now... say we have the notation editor as many want them in DAW's... and say it's better then Cubase, as many wanted and got with Pro-tools- NOW I'm simply saying... there is potential for enhanced playback compaitiliby, where VSL would know to play a glissando, to crossfade to a tremolo on tied notes that tremolo on the second note, and so on.

Recap:

So if you have a orchestral oriented DAW, notation editing to me is essential. Why would VSL not have it, but Cubase does?

If you have notation for a playback engine (not a printing one), you may not need slurs, etc. but for an orchestral library it would certainly be better than not having them. And if you can make it play your samples as they should, without all the midi work involved... all the better again. This allows people to fine-tune and tweak their playback... but have a lot of work done for them automaticaly.

What about that isn't good? Nothing. Is it essential? Maybe not for all DAW's, but if there was a VSL DAW I would expect such features. If VSL only added a piano roll editor, do you think users wouldn't then ask for notation? I think they would. VSL usually does things right from the start, then adds great things continually. The notation system as I've described, seems to me to be a 'right from the start' feature for a VSL DAW.

Hopefully that helps, lol.

-Sean

@iscorefilm said:

Hopefully that helps, lol.

-Sean

Not really [:)]...

Like I already said (this is one thread that for some reason I have to keep repeating myself), IF VSL created a DAW and included a reduced-features notation editor, I wouldn't use it; so be it there or not it doesn't make a difference to me. I said that the way I work is first compose fully on "paper", and then transfer the information into a DAW in MIDI format. If there are any further edits necessary (there usually are) it depends: If they are major edits I go back into Sibelius and re-import the relevant part(s); if the edits are minor I just correct them in the piano-roll. 

So: I need the best possible playback from my professional, fully featured notator. None at this point provide me with that - I have never had any serious luck with the VE/Sibelius or Notion SLE solutions to the point that I prefer my GPO4 instant playback, at least that doesn't cut into my composition workflow, an imperative I cannot compromise on. I hope that VSL creates a notation solution equal or better to Sibelius, otherwise whether they include a sub-standard notator into a DAW or not, it makes no difference to me.

From some previous post of yours I gathered that we work very similarly, so I ask you again, how is it that a sub-standard notator in a DAW is so essential in your workflow. Maybe I'm missing something important...

I can't say that I would want VSL to turn in the direction of doing a Notation program. Although the company has a remarkable record for producing quality products, which are enthusiastically accepted by professional composers, I feel that a Notation program would have VSL venturing too far from their core expertise and business model. And if I could put something at the top of their project list, it would be Dimension Strings.

If someone asked where is the biggest single  bottleneck, in the Notation Software to DAW workflow, it occurs at the generation and editing of key velocity and controller data. Every notation software, I have ever used, fails to scale dynamics properly. The translation of symbols like sfz and pf is too rigid. So I am forced to bring a composition from Notation to a DAW so I may use "better" controller editing to straighten out dynamics--that is, to balance the key velocity, expression and cross fade.  Sure, there are other issues but this is the one which uses up the bulk of my editing time.

But some well considered editing tools for controllers, either in the Notation software or the DAW,  would simplify composition work flow. This project is not so innovative or large that I would suggest that a company start from scratch building a Notation package, just to add this feature.

I'd venture that Dimension Strings must already be in the company's main priorities. I have also acknowledged the leap required of them to develop notation properly, that's why I suggested a) that maybe an acquisition or partnership with companies like Opus1Music or Lilypond might be a way to go, and b) that the DAW is the next natural step for VSL. My main problem so far with current notation programs is instrumental realism and colour in playback, although I empathize with your concerns as well, and there are of course others... 

The debate of notation/reduced notation/no notation is one of the endless discussions on the Sonar forum, with those desiring notation always losing (the "current" notation editor, roughly 10+ years old, cannot even correctly notate a triplet).  As for me, without excellent notation features, a VSL DAW would be of relatively little interest (though I would sure take a look at it to see if it might be better than what I am currently using).

That gets back to risk/reward.  Of course, that is a VSL company determination.  All I am trying to suggest is that users are all over the map in terms of workflow, needs, desired features, etc.  It would be very easy for VSL to make a mistake in that regard, and that would not be a good thing.  Again, would I like a full featured DAW/notation program from VSL?  Sure.  Again, the number of employees required to create and maintain a top flight DAW/notation program, might be more than VSL can safely manage.  It is no accident that most of the major DAWS are no longer made by small private companies as they once were.

Hi, Errikos:

To make engineering a new notational program possible, you will have to break "realism" and "colours" (or perhaps the failure to achieve these) into a dry objective mechanisms which fail in current Notational software. My example is about dynamics failures and how to turn that into a engineering problem.  It would likely advance your cause if you could do the same for "realism" and "colours". Well, at least I'd be curious.[:)]

First, I wouldn't discount the need for notation in a DAW. Cubase has it and look at what Pro Tools now has, a reduced-Sibelius hybrid. So I and some commenters on here are obviously not asking for something unreasonable. Whether a DAW should have have notation or not is really a moot point. Other DAW's have it so IMO, a DAW from an orchestral sample company would practically require it.

As to whether it would need to be fully Sibelius featured or not is where I think my main disagreement is. Would an all inclusive 'pen to publish' package be best? Absolutely! But in the case that we don't get that... I think that certain features of Sibelius quality programs aren't neccesary and that a 'better than other DAW notation editor' would be fine.

While I'm making points like "Does the DAW need page margin tools, etc? I am not convinced that it does."- please trust me when I say I would love having it. - So much that I would even prefer a) True Sibelius integration (meaning the types of VSL-related features we've mentioned in this thread) or b) a full fledged notation editor in the supposed VSL-DAW -- My previous comments are only directed at my thinking they wouldn't choose the 'B' option. I don't know that they need to for user demand, but if more of you disagree with me on that point, then obviously I'm wrong...lol In any case, if they did, I'd love it.

Does anyone know if it would be possible for VSL, without AVID's assistance or access to some of the Sibelius source-code, etc... if VSL could accomplish this without needing AVID to do anything? VSL would need to know what is going on notation-wise inside Sibelius, real-time. -- And please realize, I know Sibelius isn't the only notation editor, but as it's my favorite and certainly one of the most popular, if not the most (?) then I use it merely for reference. The same example applies to other companies.

-Sean

P.S. Thanks for your patience... It takes me forever to summerize, so I usually comment loooong. [:$]

@iscorefilm said:

Does anyone know if it would be possible for VSL, without AVID's assistance or access to some of the Sibelius source-code, etc... if VSL could accomplish this without needing AVID to do anything? VSL would need to know what is going on notation-wise inside Sibelius, real-time. -- And please realize, I know Sibelius isn't the only notation editor, but as it's my favorite and certainly one of the most popular, if not the most (?) then I use it merely for reference. The same example applies to other companies.

Sibelius is owned by AVID, so there can be no access to any sort of code without their permission.

The big problem with playback from a notation program such as Sibelius is that far too much of what needs to be done for a realistic performance comes from using real time controllers, and most of this comes from using ones ears, which is not something that Sibelius can do. However, I also think that playback could be much better, but that would require the Sibelius developers to work very closely with developers of all orchestral sample libraries, because each reacts differently when it comes to control of the dynamic curves. This would be a mammoth task and certainly not within their current purview.

As to whether or not VSL should develop their own notation program for use with their samples, all I can say is that I wouldn't use it, as it would be unlikely to as feature rich as Sibelius, using it would make my work incompatible with other composers/orchestrators who don't use VSL, and I have other things in my template than VSL.

DG

Like I said, the idea of a VSL DAW occured to me having observed how they had already developed most of the individual components.

The notation aspect was an after-thought (soon after mind you), and that came through the Notion SLE example, which did its job using relatively few computer resources. Realistic-as-possible playback during the composition/orchestration phase - a crutch I agree, ears should be enough - would save a lot of time not only because of fidelity, but also because a lot of the work that would be done during this first phase, would not need to be re-done/un-done during the MIDI/mixing phase. For me, interesting only if it is to be fully featured, maybe not with some of the publishing elements of Sibelius/Finale, but certainly armed with all the sophisticated composition tools and plug-ins. Many of us don't just write a railroad track of semi-quavers... XML should take care of most of the problems regarding collaboration, although I feel that should VSL take that road most porfessionals will follow suit, nullifying that problem for the most part.

Finally, when I posted that thread, foremost in my mind was integration. The more things under one hood, the better.

@Another User said:

foremost in my mind was integration. The more things under one hood, the better.

Notation editing with automatic integration and better integration for playback with VSL is what I think users want. Notion really succeeded here in many ways but it still wasn't integrated enough. Notion4 or 5 probably would have been... but that won't happen now. Being that they've abandoned development, I guess I was wrong about something you said.

You've mentioned VSL buying another notation program and I've typically dismissed it because I had Sibelius stuck in my mind and I figure AVID isn't selling it anytime soon. Also that it would be a lot of money for VSL to spend. But now that I'm looking at this again... with Notion leaving this platform... maybe it's not such an unlikely idea. Like you've said, VSL has most of the DAW built... simply add sequencing, a piano roll, and hopefully a full notation editor (I agree, fully featured at bare minimum with the compositional features)... plus Notion really is a piano-roll / notation / midi automation -hybrid anyway- which is why it served this crowd.

Although I still feel that VSL buying Notion is a bit of a dream that won't happen... I'd at least suggest to VSL that I'd buy such a thing without hesitation.

-Sean

@DG said:

As to whether or not VSL should develop their own notation program for use with their samples, all I can say is that I wouldn't use it, as it would be unlikely to as feature rich as Sibelius, using it would make my work incompatible with other composers/orchestrators who don't use VSL, and I have other things in my template than VSL.

With my previous comment, I forgot to mention that I had your statement in mind. If VSL either implemented something like Notion or actually bought Notion... then it could easily serve non-VSL libraries... as well as full integration with VSL... Notion's already built the platform for it too.

Plus, some of the extra features we mentioned earlier in this thread and in the 'Sibelius 7' thread could also be easily added at that point. I'm sure a lot more VSL-complimenting and/or time-saving features could be added if such a thing were to happen. hmm... [^o)]

-Sean

@Errikos said:

Like I said, the idea of a VSL DAW occured to me having observed how they had already developed most of the individual components.

It may be that notation-reliant people are not familiar enough with a real DAW to know any better. I require things of Cubase I would honestly imagine required serious coding time and design, the intricacies of its tempo track editor alone is no small matter. There are differences between SX3 and C4 in this one aspect that were not trivial.

I don't believe that channel strips from soft instrument plugins in a mixer paradigm is 'most of the components of' any DAW I would remotely be interested in. I don't think I'm any outlier in what I require. The people that use only VSL are the outlier for the DAW world. What demand there is for combining a more-useful-than-notation sequencer paradigm with a notation program is very likely reflected in Notion's sales. 

I wouldn't guess there is any market for VSL to justify any outlay towards R&D, let alone support for such an idea. I haven't noticed anyone from VSL showing any interest in this. I wouldn't get my hopes up here.

Civilization 3, you made two points I'll address:

1) The demand for notation/sequencing hybrid is reflected in Notion sales.

I disagree. If there was a DAW that kept notation and performance separate, similar to Notion in having a score in one hand, and a fine-tuned performance in another- and the notation was similar to what we are asking in it's integration with a sample library (more than Notion SLE, but how we've described)... then I think there would be more interest. Notion is a hybrid... but I didn't buy it and I'm all for the idea. I just don't think they did enough integration and enough work on making their hybrid style system into what people really want from the idea. I know other users online and in person that didn't go with Notion for that exact reason.

2) That VSL can't justify supporting such features, because of a lack of interest.

How many in the digital music world want notation composing with good sound? Count everyone in the Sibelius, Finale, Notion, VSL, EW, crowds, and more... who have tried to get both sides working together. How good Sibelius sounds are is a big deal to Sibelius users. How VSL works with Sibelius is certainly important to a respectable number of the VSL user-base. Maybe not the majority... but maybe because it simply hasn't been implemented very well so far

Consider this... When you write for a cello, you don't hand a cellist a piano-roll style print out of the score. You give them notation, why? It's the standard and what we are all most familiar with. So why would a digital cello be any different? Because notation doesn't serve performance in the way that computers will process and play it back to you. A piano roll is much more specific but less readable to people. Notation is more general and readable, but to strict to instruct a computer for good playback.

So I have two points 1) Can playback improve for the notation world? Yes, of course! It badly needs it. 2) If you could easily get the right cello performance out of notation, would you need the piano roll anymore? No. You wouldn't. Different users use notation, piano rolls, midi controllers, etc. But notation has suffered the worst in playback ability because of the nature of computers and how they only do what you tell them to do on a very basic level, etc. Why should this be of interest to VSL? Because VSL is an orchestral library. VSL would probably rather Sibelius get playback working in a VSL-friendly way... but as it is still far behind... users who prefer notation suffer from it. How many orchestral composers want notation? How many users do sample libraries loose because of their complexity and more 'sequencer-daw attitude'?

In the end, only VSL can really decide if it's in their interest... as I've stated on here. But pointing out the benefits and additional feature ideas to help this conceptual editor is certainly more than dreaming, it has it's productive benefits... If VSL does it... great! If they don't, then we've at least established a conversation online where VSL may reference later, or others may reference or find ideas that may still serve this purpose (in one way or another). So in the end, there is still a point in making certain problems and desired features aware. The more people talk about what they want from a product, the better... whether VSL develops it, or even if another hobbiest finds a way to help VSL users through other means or ideas. It's definately worth talking about. And the more users that chime in with their support... perhaps it will get attention.

And this isn't strictly a notation thread. I've just been replying frequently with Errikos about notation. You mentioned the Tempo track in Cubase. I wouldn't think that it's the most code-heavy feature of Cubase. (maybe I'm wrong, lol) VE really does have a lot of DAW features already. It has plenty of non-traditional DAW features also, that primarily only serve VSL users. Are there sequencing and editor features (both notation and otherwise) that could improve for VSL users alone? You bet!

-Sean

Not to mention how many sequencers/DAWs are offered for free on the Internet or very cheaply. I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of the necessary programming, but it seems to me that VSL has already developed the more demanding and expensive aspects of a DAW, and don't forget, a VSL DAW doesn't have to include those features that are necessary in pop music; it will be a symphonist's sequencer, not a ProTools competitor.