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  4. Cinematic Themes

  • Cinematic Themes

    M
    M
    Dear friends and composition teachers at the same time,

    I took this "advice" of this guy actually quite serious. More concrete he told me I should stay in one instrument for a melody, don´t contrast that "arbitrary" and generally compose more melody. Of course what I did was the more or less complete opposite, I was looking for as lively instrumention as possible, wild contrasts and motivic/cell structure (actually I took the challenge to compose as much as possible without needing melody...)
    So of course now I want to show off! [8o|]
    Here´s the result: (4.5MB)
    http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/Cinematic_Themes_mix5.mp3">http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/Cinematic_Themes_mix5.mp3

    It is comprised of three themes: (every part roughly a minute)
    A) Epic, suitable for a "Sandalenfilm", like we germans call it.
    B) Romantic, introvert
    C) uplifting, should open the heart (Should be suitable for E.T. flying ..., don´t know if I succeeded, seems a bit heavy to me)

    Please comment on the filmic aspects of these melodies. Did I succeed in the desired emotions? How oldfashioned is the sound compared to the quite poppy contemporary scores? What should I change to get the sound a bit more up to date?

    Looking forward to your comments,
    - Mathis
  • C
    C
    The composition itself is good, i think it perfectly fit to a movie, there are no problem about that .. . but


    are you using mono-only instruments ? i always think in your music that instruments dont enough "breath", or may be you only use solo instruments i don't know, there is something strange,some times for example at 1:00 the brass are powerful etc and sometimes it seems that you'are using solo instruments, i can't explain clearly but you need a more powerful sound i think,the instruments seems to be in a narrow place, may be the verb is too dry ?

    sorry if i didn't said a lot about the melodic/art aspect of your composition.
  • M
    M
    Hm, actually I know what you mean but I didn´t find out yet where that should come from. It sounds a bit pressed, not free. Exactly: not really breathing.
    However, I can´t imagine why Mono instruments should be the reason for that, but it´s true, more or less everything is quite narrowed to allow a believable stereo image of the whole orchestra.
    Dietz?

    I use both solo instruments and ensemble instruments. It´s a very different sound to let three trombones play unison or individually and I want to use both.

    Thanks for your comment!
    - M
  • C
    C
    i added wildly a big reverb like amsterdam concertgebouw to your music, the result is good i think, what reverb or impulses did you used ? 100 % dry or 100 % wet ? the key of the problem is there i think.
  • C
    C
    with the reverb i added it's a lot better imho, more pleasant to hear [;)] very good composition
  • M
    M
    Could you please send me your treatment as an mp3 to mbn(at)audionomio.de? I don´t use altiverb since I´m on PC and Samplitude with standard Impulse responses and am very curious how that sounds.

    Thanks for your compliment!
    - M
  • C
    C
    ok i'm uploading it in my FTP wait some minutes

    Sometimes you'll notice some "saturation" of the sounds, this is due to the fact that i used an external plugins of winamp (a convolver) so to record the convolved file i used sound forge recorder to record the sound of winamp..

    It's not very well mixed i know but i think the verb i used really enhance your music.
  • C
    C
    http://annecywebtv.free.fr/Cinematic-Themes-Mathis.mp3

    100 % wet ,
  • M
    M
    Thanks Carter, I see (hear) your points but still prefer my version since obviously the use of a 100% impulse reverb would require a much different mix (which you of course you can´t change).
    I´m not sure about these 100% mixes, I also don´t like the mix of Evans demos on the vsl user demo section. So much definition gets lost. But I hear you, too, I heard again my mix and was surprised how the instruments jump into my face. But the frequency range and definition! Probably the truth lies somewhere inbetween.

    Carter, thanks very much!
    Bests,
    - M
  • W
    W
    Mathis

    I was very glad you decided to do the opposite of what that guy said. I downloaded this and like it.

    I didn't find that much problem with the sound. I think you used a bit too much collapse on the larger ensemble sounds like the violins, and could add more overall reverb, but everything else sounds very good. Though that one double reed solo in the middle - what is that? I couldn't identify it. An English Horn? Sounded a little "unmodulated" and artificial.

    The music is more casual than your others, right? It doesn't have that "emptiness" you spoke of. I love that emptiness like the Monochrome Grey. Do more of that. I will buy a CD of that - a customer request. Of course I'm probably trying to warp you to my own preferences. I seem to want to hear and write quiet, contemplative, melancholy things these days.

    (BTW did you ever hear Holst's "Egdon Heath"? My favorite piece. It has a lot of that barren, mysterious sound.)
  • M
    M
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    @William said:

    I was very glad you decided to do the opposite of what that guy said. I downloaded this and like it.


    Oops, ehm, actually I ment to exactly fulfil these requirements he mentioned. Sorry, not clear enough. I read again and what I described was the way of composing *before* his comments.
    This now is meant to show my abilities to compose familiar filmrelated thematic material. It´s made from a purely professional/commercial standpoint. So, for example, *only* melody.
    Do you still like me? [:O]ops:

    I´ll probably refine the mix when my ears are open again. Yes, this instrument in the middle section is an english horn. Unfortunatly my hobo was in bad form ... and I was a bit lazy this time concerning articulations. Probably I should refine there also.

    So, William, sorry for the misunderstanding. Of course this is not *my* music, I just want to be able to write this kind of style. To be totally honest, Monochrom is also not *completely* my music. It´s a strange crossover between wanting to be commercial and my own esthetics, but still more on the personal than the commercial side. Once I finally made the start into professional composing I will return to my more personal things.
    Which doesn´t mean at all that I don´t enjoy working on these pieces! [:D]

    Any more comments on this from the professional point of view?

    Edgon Heath, is that a piece on its own or is it part of a greater form? I will look for it, I´m curious!

    Bests,
    - Mathis
  • M
    M
    Ok, I refined the mix, thanks very much for the helpful comments. Also I exchanged the englishhorn in the middle section to a classical guitar. This is a bit even more clichée but it´s so much easier to make music on a real instrument.... especially on this klind of melody. And this hobo fortunatly was in better shape today [[;)]]

    http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/Cinematic_Themes_mix5.mp3">http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/Cinematic_Themes_mix5.mp3
  • A
    A
    Speaking of themes, have you mathis or anyone else made a theme? I mean like a real theme with a melodic tune you just wistle without thinking about it. Like Matthias Gunthert's song "ready to fight". And the theme of the rock, enemy of the state, bad boys, face off...you know what I mean.

    People have a tendens to just call it a theme....
    (well, I guess you can call it a theme when it repeats itself throughout the movie, but still) The theme to "spirit"(hans zimmer) now that's a THEME!
    Something like that I mean...

    I can't show you mine yet, I have to create it with vsl first.

    But please share yours!

    AJ
  • M
    M
    Hi Audun,

    well, for this kind of catchyness one of course has to compose a great melody with the stylistically appropriate sound but it´s also a matter of programming it into the audience.
    I once wrote a theater music where I composed a pretty catchy melody and it was repeated really often during the show. And of course it made me smile to watch the people going out of the theater whistleing the melody. But what made me really laugh was that at a certain point nearly everybody stumbled and had to stop because I had built in some nasty chromatic shifts which sound completely simple but if you wanted to sing it.... forget it.. [:D]

    I made another theme which would be well suited for numerous uses in a film (I was thinking of a film like "Amores perros" or "21 grams". This is my sort of hommage.)
    http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/Lonesome_guitar_mix3.mp3">http://www.mathis-nitschke.com/mp3/Lonesome_guitar_mix3.mp3

    It´s much much emptier than the other one...
    William, I was thinking about your "order". Actually I think it´s a good one. Stay prepared...

    So finally good night, I really need sleep now.
    Bests,
    - Mathis
  • P
    P
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    @mathis said:

    It is comprised of three themes: (every part roughly a minute)
    A) Epic, suitable for a "Sandalenfilm", like we germans call it.
    B) Romantic, introvert
    C) uplifting, should open the heart (Should be suitable for E.T. flying ..., don´t know if I succeeded, seems a bit heavy to me)
    Mathis


    (A) No problem with that. Very good. That sounds like music in a lot of TV docs.

    (B) Theme is fine. Maybe the underlying orchestration could be simpler, fuller and more legato

    (C) Bit heavy as you say. But the idea is right for me.

    Carter was right about the reverb to my ears Mathis. This is about writing music to a sort of formula isn't it?
    A lot of TV/Film melodies are actually quite simple. The one that springs to mind straight away, is the theme to The Magnificant Seven. Fairly simple and memorable theme, but what really makes it, is what's going on underneath. Fred Story made a good point in an earlier post about familiarity with regard to the listening or subconciously listening audience. They don't want things to be too busy. They don't want 'too many notes'.

    On the other hand, if your'e writing your 'other' music thats to go on a CD and is not meant to go with pictures, then you can more or less do what you like and thats fine.

    Formula wise. Did you suceed with the desired emotions? Umm...yeah. Is it old-fashioned sounding? Do you or I or an audience give a shit, I mean really? If it suceeds, it suceeds. Period! Don't forget, the first thing an 'audience' does, is watch the birdie. They will only worry about the music if it is totally unsuitable (i.e. Flight of the Bumble Bee playing - when a guy is getting his brains blown out on screen) or 'sounds' bad.

    With regard to Evan's sound now, as opposed to what's posted on the forum, I would say that the sound now is very different to my ears.

    I think your'e a very talented musician Mathis, and I hope you find this reasonable. [:)]

    Bests

    Paul
  • M
    M
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    @Another User said:

    Formula wise. Did you suceed with the desired emotions? Umm...yeah.

    I understand why you hesitate. I rarely experience a formula as a real emotion. Usually I´m also very very cautious with naming emotions in music. I rarely find them literally suitable. But I understand the business needs here. A lot of people honestly do think that formulas *are* emotions. And if some music is not fitting this formulas it´s considered unemotional, as much as I disagree with that. This is an attempt to show that I can serve formulas since I intend to make a living out of composing.

    Still more reverb? huh.. I have to investigate.
    I absolutely agree with Evans todays sound. After hearing Carters treatment I remembered that Evan was doing the same on his older demos and I listened to them again. But it´s certainly not what he´s doing now.

    Thanks for your nice words and your comments,
    - Mathis
  • P
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    @mathis said:

    Hi Paul, thanks for listening and your comments. Yes, exactly, it´s about formulas here. (Sorry to bug you all with formulas...)
    I wasn´t thinking about the TV docs. Maybe I should aquire there...
    Mathis


    No worries at all Mathis. I enjoy listening and it's no bug whatsoever. Look for anything you can write music for, including TV docs especially. They're like mini dramas a lot of the time.

    I watched Al Pacino briefly talking about his acting career on TV last night. Brilliant actor! He said he must have loaded more guns on screen than he'd had sips of coffee. BUT, everytime he has to do it again, it's going to be different. He said it's like starting afresh and everything becomes a blank canvas again.
    Writing music is very much akin to that in my view. Although, you need to rely on some formulas and techniques, which of course, Al Pacino does when acting. However, it goes from being good to brilliant, as with Pacino's acting, when you don't have to think about technique and formula and you stop thinking and analysing an ants backside.

    Thinking is good, but not too much. Just write! It's about being prolific and writing good and bad music as I may have mentioned before. No need to worry about what other musicians think too much. They won't hire you and they won't pay your bills my friend. [:)]

    Bests

    Paul
  • W
    W
    I don't like this cheerful acceptance of "formulas."

    A formula is nothing but a copy of somebody else's idea. A good composer doesn't copy - he creates. Then all the hacks copy his "formula."

    Funny how everybody right here on this forum can ridicule and criticize big name composers for being hacks - but when it's time for them to avoid formulas and be original, well hey! We're struggling. We can't worry about things like that now. We're trying to pay bills.

    Well guess what: you can pay bills and not be a hack, though nobody believes that. But never mind - this is all just playing with ideas to most people, as opposed to something to live by.
  • M
    M
    William, it´s also about recreating it for learning the formula and learning the difference between the formula and me. Eventually it´s about finding myself. Too often I thought of something as original to only discover later that it actually is a formula or was made already (well, ok, that´s some time ago, now I know more but still far from everything). I just want to understand what´s around me and this I can best with re-creating it.
    Since I actually don´t have the impression that I´m very good in doing formulas I regard the chance thankfully quite low for getting hired doing formula work.

    I just want to compose as much as possible and am curious like a pig smelling truffles. I lost so many years in my life not composing because I wanted to stay morally integer and doing only pieces worth the art. Now I have to catch up with this lost time.
    Tomorrow there will be another piece.

    I hope I didn´t piss you off too much, my friend.
    Bests,
    - M
  • F
    F
    "Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory."

    - Sir Thomas Beecham

    He also said, ""Composers should write tunes that chauffeurs and errand boys can whistle."

    But my all time favorite Beecham quote has to be...

    "Mediocre composers borrow. Great composers steal." (This quote - or variations of it - is attributed to many others, including Stravinsky.)

    I know I've been guilty of trying so hard to be original, I forget that music should make someone FEEL something. I try to ask myself if I've crossed the line of self-indulgence, the result being that what I have to say is only interesting to ME.

    It's a question we constantly struggle with...each in our own way. Life imposes demands. We have to eat and have a place to hang our hat. That takes money. But music imposes its own demands. And if ever there were two more diametrically opposed sets of demands...

    I want to be original...I want people to like my music...I want to make a living...I want to be remembered...I want to never compromise...I want to take a vacation from time to time...I want to give my music all the time it requires...I want to spend more time with my family. How the hell do we ever resolve all that? Or DO we ever? If anyone does, please bottle the answer and sell it on the web. I may have enough equity in my house to afford it...and would spend it in a heartbeat.

    In my search to get the above quotes correct, I came across these as well. And we think things are worse today?

    “Please write music like Wagner, only louder.”
    -Sam Goldwyn, instructing composer for a movie

    "[Musicians] talk of nothing but money and jobs. Give me business- men every time. They really are interested in music and art."
    - Jean Sibelius, explaining why he rarely invited musicians to his home.

    "Only become a musician if there is absolutely no other way you can make a living."
    - Kirke Mecham, on his life as a composer

    Fred Story