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  4. How to get this sound with vienna imperial in MIR?

  • How to get this sound with vienna imperial in MIR?

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     Today we have a rainy day here, so no chance for walking through the park, so it was drifting me to listen of one of my favourite pieces from the demo zone. 'In a sentimental mood' reminds me in days of my childhood, when I listen to a old vinyl-record of Eroll Garner - the crunch and cracks were absent only. The sound of this demo is incredible natural (and have a feel of a real recording, crazy!) and so I'm thinking about how to achieve  t h a t  sound. (Regardless of the arrangement and playing/programming, I take it cheeky as preconditioned, knowing and admiring the very skilled work by Christoph Unterberger.)

     Lately I aquired the vienna imperial, the download db, room pack 2 of MIR (and vsl custom service made me happy with the jazz drums!) , so I have all possibilities for a likewise sounding piano-jazz-trio. But I have to recognized, it's soundwise not so easy, how it seems, despite the right tools.    

    So my question for you, Dietz - if it's not a secret - did you doublelayered the sound of the piano, means two mic positions (so two instances) of the vienna imperial e.g. close and distant? (Some gentle phrases comes much more closer than the full voicing parts and the tail of reverb is almost completely away), so it seems for me, I can't get this of only one very subtle tuned mic position. Or is that the effect of using subtle compression for the piano? Is double layering advisable at all? Or is it to pose a risk of phase issues? And did you any EQ tweaking for the piano? (For the doublebass I'm quite shure you didn't, sounds very good right out of the box...)

    Lot of questions, o.k. It doesn't out of sheer curiosity. Some hints are  v e r y  aprecciated! So thanks a   l o t   in advance!

    Frank

          
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Hi Frank.

    Thanks for the kind words. As you may know, this is one of my all-time favorite VSL demo, and like you, I envy Christoph for his skills ... at least I had the chance to mix it. ;-)

    Re: Piano - Although I did some double-layering with the Vienna Imperial in a pop-oriented context, what you hear in "Sentimental Mood" is just its "player's perspective" setting, with some EQing and just a little bit of compression, IIRC.  But you are absolutely right - the main part was to find the proper position for the instrument in the room.

    Re: Bass - this one is treated stronger than it might seem, mostly to tame the sharp fret-noises on behalf of a Vienna Suite Multiband Limiter

    Re: Hints in general - I will take a glance if I still have the MIR Project on my disk. If I find it, I will gladly send you a copy. I can't supply you with the MIDI-data, though, as they are the work of Christoph Unterberger.

    Kind regards,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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     Hallo Dietz,

    I have really no words for it.  T h a n k s  so much!! (Indeed, hope you will find it ;-))

    I will find the right MIDI input for this MIR file, for shure. (And if I don't, it will helps to lighten the long evenings of november in any case.)

    And: Did try out to double-layer some tracks - yeah!!!

    So thanks again!

    Frank   
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    Dietz,

    Any chance that if you find it, I could get a copy as well please?!  I make tons of solo recordings and just purchased Vienna Imperial (I tried for so long to love Pianoteq but it just never quite got me from a realistic sound perspective).  I am amazed at how good Vienna Imperial is.  It's by far better then any of the 9 I own already.  No comparison.

    Maestro2be
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @doubleattack said:

    And: Did try out to double-layer some tracks - yeah!!!

    Just keep in mind that this will only work properly within MIR as long as you use the _same MIDI input_ for both players. As soon as you use two different MIDI-channels, the timing-inaccuracies of the MIDI-protocol will become obvious in form of phasing.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    So basically create two tracks in the DAW, send both performances to the same midi channel into MIR correct?  (I have done this many times to double up the sound, but I would have each track playing a different mic setting or profile setting of the pianoteq piano).  Together it made a more fat rich sound.

    Do you have two instances of Vienna Imperial running in the MIR setup so that each channel has its own custom sound settings but uses the same midi input?  So Track one from DAW goes out midi 1, Track two also goes to out midi 1.  But you have two seperate Vienna Imperials within MIR listening on Midi channel 1, each having their own profile sound setting?

    This really has my attention as I am working on a piece as we speak for a vocal accompaniment as well as a solo performance track.

    Maestro2be
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    @doubleattack said:

    And: Did try out to double-layer some tracks - yeah!!!

    Just keep in mind that this will only work properly within MIR as long as you use the _same MIDI input_ for both players. As soon as you use two different MIDI-channels, the timing-inaccuracies of the MIDI-protocol will become obvious in form of phasing.

     

     Thanks for this very important hint! I noticed this for the first time when I did this mistake. But with the right setting it does work properly - and the sound is outstanding for some kind of music - and very variable. Very happy for acquiring this splendor instrument. (And while I'm playing jolly I'm thinking of the poor men they have had to work for three months this stupid recordings  - in a silence stage. My wife was told me what that means, because she was working often in a anechoic chamber for some years - long time ago. The result was it worth, that's for shure.)  

    Kind regards

    Frank
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    @cgernaey said:

      So Track one from DAW goes out midi 1, Track two also goes to out midi 1.  But you have two seperate Vienna Imperials within MIR listening on Midi channel 1, each having their own profile sound setting?

    Maestro2be

     Hi Maestro2be,

    if I did it right, you should use only  o n e  track with midi output to  t w o  instances of the vienna imperial with the  s a m e  MIDI input but different mic positions settings inside MIR. You can play in real time in the same way.  

    If I'm wrong, please correct me, Dietz. (Hope it's o.k. to give this quick answer by the way.)

    Frank
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    Awesome, that's simple to setup.  Especially if Dietz provides the MIR file configuration haha! :).  Then I can do my recordings and get that good sound I love from that demo.  It will fit nicely in certain pieces I have to record.

    Thanks for the info Frank!

    Maestro2be
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    Hi Maestro2b,

    according Dietz the piano sound of the really amazing demo is made with the 'player position' only!! (compare the post above)

    But he was using a double-layer setup for some other (pop) - projekts.  The double-layer concept was a speculation of myself. I was surprised (maybe like you) that he used the player position only.

    Surprising, yes, MIR helps a lot, but no machine of the world is able to substitue the art of mixing. 

    And it's important to be aware, that the touch and the voicings of the great piano-player in this demo is the first half of the sound.  

    I hope, Dietz wil not regret his amazing offer. To be allowed to get a closer look in a work of a master is not an everyday occurence.

    Kind regards

    Frank

      
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    Some comments:

    I didn't use two different settings of Vienna Imperial for "Sentimental Mood", just the Player's Perspective setting.

    I used two perspectives of the Vienna Imperial on some occasions in a pop-context (always Close and Player, AFAIR), when I was aiming for that typical "bigger than life" sound - which is not what you would like to here in a classical or jazz piece.

    Edit: Frank was typing faster than me!  :-D

    @doubleattack said:

    [...] (And while I'm playing jolly I'm thinking of the poor men they have had to work for three months this stupid recordings  - in a silence stage. My wife was told me what that means, because she was working often in a anechoic chamber for some years - long time ago. The result was it worth, that's for shure.)   [...]

    Frank, the Vienna Imperial was sampled form a Boesendorfer CEUS, which is actually played by a computer: -> [URL]http://www.boesendorfer.com/index.php?m=70&lang=en[/URL] Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to supply you with 100 discrete velocities from a single key. Neither men nor animals got harmed during the recordings of this instrument. 😉

    Apart from that - VSL's SilentStage is _very_ far from being an anechoic room. It's meant to be a concert hall without the audience area (thus "Stage"), with special precautions being taken against noise from the outside (thus "Silent"). Acoustic instruments sound _awful_ in an anechoic room. Watch the QuickTime VR presentation on this page and you get the idea: -> [URL]http://vsl.co.at/en/65/72/102/19.vsl[/URL]

    *************

    Regarding the MIR Project data of "Sentimental Mood": I've already found the proper file. The problem is that it points to a pre-release version of the Venue ORF Studio 2, so we have to re-build it to make it usable for you.

    BTW - there was much less processing done on the single instruments than I thought - no compression on the piano, just the VI's built-in EQ. You will be astonished. - I remember that I did some "mastering" on the final mix, though.

    I'll let you know when it's available for D/L.

    Kind regards,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Another User said:

    Regarding the MIR Project data of "Sentimental Mood": I've already found the proper file. The problem is that it points to a pre-release version of the Venue ORF Studio 2, so we have to re-build it to make it usable for you.

    BTW - there was much less processing done on the single instruments than I thought - no compression on the piano, just the VI's built-in EQ. You will be astonished. - I remember that I did some "mastering" on the final mix, though.

    I'll let you know when it's available for D/L.

     

    Much obliged. Now I have to think how to return the favour.

    Frank
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    Regarding CEUS, I remember, I have read about it in a famous german journal. With CEUS they have made an investigation about the timing of great piano players. And it comes to the conclusion that is much more important what happens  b e t w e e n  the touches of the keys than the touch itself. And the significance of tempostretches and -upsets at the best interpretations. Very interesting. Didn't know that this system was used for vienna imperial. Sorry for double posting, but was exited after reading the link!

    Frank
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    A sidenote: Actually there are much more than 93*100 samples for Vienna Imerial. Due to sympathetic resonances, repetition- and release samples there are up to 1200 samples per key: -> [URL]http://vsl.co.at/en/211/442/478/1701/1703/1306.htm[/URL]

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    Of the 3 positions available there is no doubt about it that I love Player the most.  The interesting concept behind it is perhaps that I believe I am tainted from being the actual performer over the years.  It just sounds natural to my ears to have the sound coming from the players perspective.  Even though perhaps the listener position yields a slightly different sound, I love the fact that I can give to them as close to exactly what I hear as possible.  It makes for me the ability to do very personal and intimate recordings.  I have only had this piano a few days and I am just blown away how good it sounds compared to all my other pianos.  I can't wait to hear what it's going to sound like once I place it into MIR and align it properly.

    I do have some velocity issues to resolve though which is another issue though.  I need to figure out how to map velocity curves into this piano as I can't find a curve in the software.  I would love to improve the dynamic performace of my Keyboard into the software more closely.  I think it would instantly raise the quality another leap and bound.

    Maestro2be
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    @Dietz said:

    A sidenote: Actually there are much more than 93*100 samples for Vienna Imerial. Due to sympathetic resonances, repetition- and release samples there are up to 1200 samples per key: -> http://vsl.co.at/en/211/442/478/1701/1703/1306.htm

    The most astonishing thing for me is, how it's possible to compress that huge content in 50 GB only without any audible losses. It's a very very convincing sound, so the torture for the recording team (can't be funny, I don't believe so) was it worth. Incredible!  

    Frank
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @doubleattack said:

    The most astonishing thing for me is, how it's possible to compress that huge content in 50 GB only without any audible losses.

    ... yes, that's one if the great things in the background that the VSL developers were able to achieve. It's lossless compression (opposed to data-reduction like MP3, for example).

    ****

    BTW - there will be a link to the MIR-Project of  "Sentimental Mood" soon. Our IT-chief became suspicious when I asked him to host the file ... 😄

    Best,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    @Dietz said:

    ...Our IT-chief became suspicious when I asked him to host the file ... 😄

     

    For giving away knowlegde? That's apprehensible. It 's really a unselfish invitation of you. But: Be able to read something means not be able to be a Writer. 

    But if he's afraid henceforth I'm working only nothing but vsl and vi, whilest he's sweating blood to solve some negligible issues with some kind of german software, you can becalm him too. There's no connection. I'm not open to bribery,   v   e   r   y    forbearing only.

    Kind regards

    Frank

       
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    Here we go - please click here (or here, when you're in the US).

    Enjoy!

    EDIT: Downloadable files are repaired now!

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
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    Thanks Dietz!!  I will try this tomorrow and let you know the results!  It downloaded just fine (the U.S. Version).

    Much appreciated!

    Maestro2be