William, that end cue from F451 is one of the most beautiful, effective musical moments I have ever heard for film or otherwise.  It's as emotive as anything Mahler wrote IMO.  Herrmann's genius was how he did break the standard orchestra archetypes and realized that recording offered a composer many more exciting avenues.  The difference between Herrmann and Zimmer (and it's a gulf as big as the Atlantic ocean) is that he still employed all of the fundamentals of music- ie motivic development, thematic development, harmony, counterpoint, the whole kitchen sink.  

What really gets me hot under the collar is how people want to dismiss these things as old fashioned or outdated.  That's like saying "oh, we don't need to train doctors in physiology, biology, anatomy, chemistry, to prepare them for operating- they just need to have good interpersonal skills".  Or the bridge builder/architect who doesn't need to study physics, etc.  It's hilarious (not really) how often people confuse music with some artsy fartsy "anyone can do this" philosophy and dismiss the fact that its system is as deep as any applied science.  These techniques were developed because they sounded good! And they were built upon for several hundred years.  But, no, in the space of 2 decades, we have seen a dramatic disintegration of any respect or value in the system of music.  Thanks to Garageband or worse GuitarHero, music is just a game that anyone with a heartbeat can do with no practice or dedication towards its perfection.

I also study Goju Ryu karate and it has a very defined system.  If I showed up and said I didn't need all those fancy kata and conditioning exercises and felt I was equal to a Shodan or higher (blackbelt) I would get my ass kicked from here to next Tuesday.  Why is music any different?  Martial arts are also ARTS and they have very defined systems that need to be learned.  Funny enough, so many people start with MA but drop out shortly after because they don't have the discipline to stick with it.  

I have studied music since I was in university, and I have been composing since I was 11 years old and I still respect those who have more knowledge than I and am humble to keep learning new techniques.  All this technology has brought about an arrogance I just cannot fathom.  I know I kind of digressed here but these issues I feel are the real root cause of this musical pandemic.  

By the way, it warms my heart that there are like minded people on this forum who love and value music.  I feel very much alone on other forums when I try to make light of my concerns and I'm also labeled "elitist".  These days, if elitism equals respect towards a higher aesthetic, than call me that and I will hold it high with pride.

Yes, themes are not necessarily needed, and if one goes back to those early films when scores were more technically developed, you find any number of films where the busy score doesn't really fit what's going on on the screen.  That's probably what gets us into this thicket about technical competence.  Films have different demands score-wise, and sometimes some pretty basic stuff suits the film okay.  Just listen to some of the TV "scores."  An ominous note here and there, or a few block chords.  But I'll take these "minimalist" scores any day over the insipid folk songs that drone on in the background of some the TV shows.  They can't pull the plug on that practice too soon!

And lets not forget-- when it comes to movie scores, "Various Artists" is an equal or worse enemy than technical incompetence.

Who are these people trying to kid? Real achievement in the field of music composition is maybe the hardest human endeavour. Firstly, because you need the right physiology (perfect ear is ...perfect, but at least a musical ear is mandatory); then you need innate talent, there is no known way you can grow one. Thirdly, assuming those, one starts to learn as a child of primary school, all the way through and parallel to high-school (doctors and physicists learn the basics of their disciplines inside high-school, we have to do all that plus having our extra-curricular lessons and study), through to university, and after! Is there anyone serious here who can tell me they have stopped learning? As far as the MA is concerned, Hindemith was right when he proclaimed "How can anyone be called a Master of Music?!"

David I like how you make the analogy with martial arts. To excel in those also, you need the DNA given physical disposition, the innate talent, and of course the dedication and discipline, and years of learning and practice. If I may make one of my own, I think of Herrmann, Williams, etc. as black belts with some DAN on top, and the current Symphobes and Zimmerines as people who have taken a few self-defense classes.

And Tom, since you bring it up, "Various Artists" is exactly what the HZ factory is all about... The orchestra/synth blends that please you may not be one man's work, which by itself is not condemnable, but I always thought of composition as a very personal thing. I know there have been occasions (such as the Requiem in Italy and Glazunov's whatever it was in Russia) where composers collaborated, but never in such a faceless, characterless way...

Hi again, wrote the previous post before reading Fiery Angel's.  Is there really arrogance by those who use Garage Band, etc. towards musical education?  Perhaps so, but I haven't experienced it.  I think most people attempting to write music are aware of their limitations.  Whether or not they chose to educate themselves is another matter, as is public taste.  Who of us hasn't gone into a nice restaurant that's sort of empty, and when they turn it into a "suds and fun" place or some sort of disco bistro, the place is packed? 

On that note, there's a video on UTube of a DJ doing his "version" of Barber's Adagio for Strings--in an amphitheater to a huge crowd going nuts.  Well-- perhaps some of these listeners wondered a bit about where this piece came from and checked out more of Barber's stuff--done the real way.  Wistful thinking?

Whoa, this thread is zipping along.  I agree with you, Erikkos.  What I sometimes like in HZ's stuff is the sound coloration, and it could well be his staff that gets credit for that, for better or worse.  I just think, based mostly on his earlier stuff, he's more capable than he's getting credit for.  But I'll bet we wouldn't even be discussing this if he hadn't declined a lot in recent years.  At this point, he, along with some of the other film score guys, seems to have used up his pallet.

That's a good point about the study of martials arts vs. other arts!   Also, I don't mean to discount the use of melody in scores either.    I am just talking about how film can use either minimal musical elements OR elaborately developed structures derived from opera, symphony, etc.

@Another User said:

What really gets me hot under the collar is how people want to dismiss these things as old fashioned or outdated.  That's like saying "oh, we don't need to train doctors in physiology, biology, anatomy, chemistry, to prepare them for operating- they just need to have good interpersonal skills".  Or the bridge builder/architect who doesn't need to study physics, etc.  It's hilarious (not really) how often people confuse music with some artsy fartsy "anyone can do this" philosophy and dismiss the fact that its system is as deep as any applied science.  These techniques were developed because they sounded good! And they were built upon for several hundred years.  But, no, in the space of 2 decades, we have seen a dramatic disintegration of any respect or value in the system of music.  

I agree and have been harping on about that for years - no  historical knowledge of just about anything. Yes, you  have to move with the times. But these times we are moving in at the moment are an unmitigated disaster when it comes to any kind of art.  Art has more or less reflected society throughout the ages.

Well, just look at the current politcal scene in the US.  Talk about no historical knowledge.....

@Tom23 said:

Well, just look at the current politcal scene in the US.  Talk about no historical knowledge.....

Well that's what happens when you run a campaign based on platitudes like - 'change' or 'hope' for instance and don't actually talk about what policies you're going to implement after a disaster like Bush. Campaigns aimed at people who constantly play with their mobile phones and text while walking and driving is always going to result in communism!!!! 

[:'(]

@PaulR said:

Well that's what happens when you run a campaign based on platitudes like - 'change' or 'hope' for instance and don't actually talk about what policies you're going to implement after a disaster like Bush. Campaigns aimed at people who constantly play with their mobile phones and text while walking and driving is always going to result in communism!!!! 

Pure comedy gold.  And way to keep it on topic.

@mike connelly said:

Pure comedy gold.  And way to keep it on topic.

You think that's funny?

Have you read my 8 page monograph entitled "How to Look Cool in Front of Cretins"

You'll find out how funny that is on Tuesday.

Getting back on topic, I was listening to Bernard Herrmann's work yesterday (the Esa Pekka Solenan recording) and it dawned upon me that Herrmann's style was actually perfectly suited to film scoring.  He used motives and interesting harmonies along with innovative orchestration to underscore his films.  Is it a wonder that most of his themes cannot be whistled while someone like Korngold's material can be?  Herrmann's approach was no less valid, and in fact, probably better suited to working within a new medium as film.  I find that Korngold's and even Williams' seminal works while being amazingly musically virtuosic (and a delight for listening to on CD) are at odds with their respective films at times.  So much activity, especially linear activity, at times convolute the film.  Herrmann's sound world meshes well with dialogue, acting, cinematography because it becomes part of the puzzle.  Now, his music certain has its striking moments to be sure.  The bombast of Cape Fear or those slicing strings from Psycho make an indelible impression on the viewer but it's still part of the movie.

The big problem with the chord approach these days is that I hear very little evidence that these bigtime film composers have any real grounding in harmony and as such use the big triadic, diatonic chords and double them with every instrument in the orchestra to give their music weight which is all wrong.  Also, MIDI orchestration has been a significant detriment to true orchestral arranging.  Playing every part on a keyboard into a DAW is not the same as writing out sections on a concert score- that method allows composers to graphically as well as musically see the density of their music.  It also allows for a more sensitive, refined approach to orchestration.  There's less of a need to load up the line with various instruments or extra superfluous lines.  If one listens to Goldsmith's music, even at its most active, there was really only 1 or 2 main ideas happening at once.  That lent a sense of clarity to the music.  Alexandre Desplat is one of the few current composers who embodies this sense of refinement in his scores.  

And getting back to Herrmann, the same thing applies.  Not a million things going on in his music- just a couple of very important things at any given time.  

@Errikos said:

I am not going into details here on why I think this has eventuated, but why shouldn't this also happen to film music? In different ways it has happened to 'serious' music long ago...

In which ways or sense do you believe this has happend to "serious" music, and when did it happen (where would you approximately locate the "long ago" on a timline)?

@jasensmith said:

And you're right, it does affect the humanities.  It's kind of like what's happening politically in the US right now.  A lot of people vote for the candidate who gives them the most instant gratification.  A science fiction writer (I can't remember the name) wrote something to the effect of once the electorate thinks they can vote themselves a free lunch (instant gratification) the republic is lost.  This culture paradigm is what's ruining music today.

I feel compelled to comment on this one, although it is a political and not a musical issue: those having free lunch in US today (at expense of everbody else) are before all Wall Street banksters, corporate criminals in general and you could also throw in the military-industrial und intelligence complex just for good measure. And these put together (with their minor accomplices in what is called "politics") are, BTW, the reason your country is momentarily going down the drain at free-fall speed.

@PaulR said:

Not necessarily. And just to go against the grain in a devils advocate way - why are themes that necessary when writing to moving pictures? I like themes but they're not a pre-requisite of movie scores are they? Themes can be quite hidden in their structure - look at Thomas Newman for example. He writes themes all the time but most people don't remember them as a bona fide theme and walk down the street whistling them.  Themes are in there though. It's perception. 

Besides, what good is a theme at a basic level? Take the thematic material of The Magnificent Seven. The theme (according to Bernstein) is quite a simple thing and like simple things is quite memorable. But that theme would be nothing if it wasn't for the tremendous orchestration/arrangement that's going on around it. And there are many themes in that film. So the question you could have asked would be more pertinent to orchestration/arrangements rather that simply just thematic material. Anyone can write a theme or a tune (not necessarily memorable) but doing the stuff around it is the really difficult part.

This is, I believe, of general importance: there is no guarantee for anything in writing themes per se, nor are they a prerequisite for composing music of substance (that is, of beauty). I suppose nobody taking part in this discussion has to be reminded that some of the most refined music known to us is completely or largely athematic - Beethoven, Anton Webern or Morton Feldman coming immediately to my mind as being particulary strong cases in point.

Yes, quite true about Beethoven. In fact the useage of motival rather than thematic development in the 5th symphony reminds me of Herrmann's deliberate use of truncated motifs in most of his film scores and - signifcantly - his later chamber music such as "Echoes," a brilliant string quartet.   Beethoven was the first to significantly use a deliberately, consciously  simplified motif to show just how much he could do with it.  And this was even though he was quite capable of creating much more elaborate melodies. 

However, to return to film scoring themes, it is just as practical to create an entire score out of a single melody (with a few interludes).  This can be observed in the great score to Somewhere in Time by John Barry.  He simply didn't need much more after he composed that theme.  Whereas a lesser composer will have to bust his ass doing scene after scene separately, Barry could kick back and do a slight variaton here, a few chords there,  once he had that perfect melody played by rapturous strings.  So that is the OPPOSITE situation from clever motif development and variation. 

@goran c said:

 

Hmm... I'm wondering if you left out the Union Bosses, Trial Lawyers, Government Bureaucrats, and Left-wing political activists (George Soros) on your list on purpose or was that just an oversight.

Well, We'll see how things go come Tuesday.

@goran c said:

 

Hmm... I'm wondering if you left out the Union Bosses, Trial Lawyers, Government Bureaucrats, and Left-wing political activists (George Soros) on your list on purpose or was that just an oversight.

Well, We'll see how things go come Tuesday.

George Soros is a Left-wing political activist? Is this supposed to be a joke? The rest you mention can be included only insofar as they function as even lesser "minor accomplices" of the principal scoundrels mentioned above (which many of them actually do), unless you are prepared to indulge in political and economic illiteracy of "America is getting taken over by Trade Unions, godless Liberals and other "Communists""-lunatics. 

US is becoming an outright dictatorship of the (American) finance capital - that is the actual takover taking place, not the fictional one by "Leftists", "Trade-Unionists", "Communists" or any other "enemies of America" from the Tea Party repertoire of delusions.

@William said:

However, to return to film scoring themes, it is just as practical to create an entire score out of a single melody (with a few interludes).  This can be observed in the great score to Somewhere in Time by John Barry.  He simply didn't need much more after he composed that theme.  Whereas a lesser composer will have to bust his ass doing scene after scene separately, Barry could kick back and do a slight variaton here, a few chords there,  once he had that perfect melody played by rapturous strings.  So that is the OPPOSITE situation from clever motif development and variation. 

I agree William.  The "Somewhere in Time" theme is one of my favorite soundtracks.  Of course, Barry did have a little help from Rachmanoff but I agree his melody, or theme if you will, pretty much carried all the way through in that movie.  I own that soundtrack and, you're right, it's just variations of the same theme with some other incidental music here and there.

I think in many ways it depends on the film.  The one theme pony for Somewhere in Time worked very well but, of course, it wouldn't work for everything.  I was watching Scarface (1983 version) the other day and I was impressed with how Giorgio Moroder assigned different themes to just about every major character in the film and it didn't sound pertentious at all like it usually does.  I think the reason for that was all of the variations of each theme.  You hardly noticed those themes were there yet they moved you all the same.  I know some complain that the nearly electronic score for Scarface was a bit contrived but not too shaby for a former Disco/Pop record producer.  I really liked those themes.