Right. but there must be a continuous controller mechanism. AFAICT most sustain pedals made to perform the function in MIDI are just a switch.

@julien breval said:

All right, but the continuous pedal data can be sent to software using a MIDI control change that is not CC64. I guess one problem is that the half-pedal effect cannot really be sampled (it has to be synthezised).

@civilization 3 said:

most sustain pedals made to perform the function in MIDI are just a switch.

I don't have much experience with various controllers, but the two I used are Korg SP-250 and Yamaha P-120. The former has 4 pedal positions (sth like 0, 30, 70, 127), the latter has many (0,8,16,24,...,127).

Of course you can use the way of thinking practiced in Apple - "We say you don't need it, so you think you don't need it" - but it ain't gonna convince me. There are other genres of music than classical ( [*-)] ), where between two different chords it's nice to make a fade out of the first one before hitting the next one, but you don't want to cut the first one immediately, because you have built up many notes...

And if you're only playing what's written in the notes, then you can be exchanged for a midi sequencer and I am pretty sure it's going to play more exactly what's written there.

I have a vague memory of a sus pedal with a DX7 I expected to get a couple positions out of when I first started working in a DAW. It seems like their would be a market for such an item.

if someone has something that'll output something beyond a switch (and there's an instrument that this will mean something to) this will a problem for a transform function in the sequencer. Cubase has one, Logic has one...

If I were any keyboardist I think I'd want it for piano libraries. When I thought to do it, I was trying to work a grand piano library. I've a strong impression I was frustrated by this, and I'm no pianist. If there's a demand there should arise a supply..

Continuous pedal is a natural need for a classical pianist. The use of the sustain pedal is very important for the management of the sound ...

You might make a similar speech to the left pedal (soft pedal)... There is no need to continue with a digital piano (at least until now), you should purchase a traditional acoustic piano...

I congratulate the excellent VSL work.
My (theoretical) request is aimed to understand if there are margins to "improve " without invalidating the original design.

(For example, the time length of the notes is handled with loops and with algorithms: it is not possible to sample infinite temporal duration.
you can manage the sustain pedal through algorithms? (I think in particular of the roland vpiano and technology supernatural))

Thanks

@gs_vsl said:

Part of the problem here is that some sequencers (e.g. Cubase), will only send two possible values for CC64. Even if you add a message for CC64=96, for example, it will translate this to something else. There is a trick where you can use the input transformer to convert other CCs to CC64, but it's not ideal.

Cubase records and plays pack all 127 values for CC64, I have a Kawai MP10 piano with half (multiple) pedaling, and Cubase deals with that all OK,  I'm not really convinced that half pedaling is of much use though, proper control of the damper pedal is all that is needed really.

@gs_vsl said:

two possible values for CC64

all 127 values for CC64

 Try using the pencil tool in the [CC64] controller lane in cubase key editor to draw something more complex - doesn't happen. Pencil in a value over 64 and the entire lane is red/ON. Until you pencil in somewhere 0-63, to turn it off.

EDIT (researching, found this old thread: This is true but it's misleading. Cubase used to do exactly this, to emulate hardware which does specifically this but in fact CC64 is a continuous controller (and current Cubase does not do this).

 CC's by their very definition are continuous controllers, where something has an on/off state, the MIDI spec clarifies the toggle point (value 63 - 64, as you mentioned), but CC64 is continuous (0 to 127). 

Cubase quantizes the CC64 value in the Key Editor display, you can see why this was done, but perhaps with modern piano sounds getting into the area of half pedalling, maybe this Cubase function is due for an update.

However, I don't see much point in entering half pedalling data in step time, if anyone is serious enough about their piano sound to require half pedalling , then I cannot believe they are going to be step entering things. Realtime performance of CC64 is recorded and played back well within Cubase. You can also go to the LIST editor to see and edit this data if really required.

If you must use the key editor, then using CC63 instead, and using the transform MIDI data to add 1 to the control value 1 will output CC64 without the quantised function that Cubase has on the CC64 in the Key editor. 

So although this shows that Cubase can deal with any value of CC64, it doesn't alter the fact that original post here was about Vienna Imperial not offering half pedalling functionality, so the limitation remains in that area and not within Cubase.  I'm sure a half pedalling option could be implemented into Vienna Imperial, as it is a dedicated player, and although we shouldn't expect half pedalling samples, a pseudo half pedall function could be implemented by reducing the normal release samples length.

@andyjh said:

 CC's by their very definition are continuous controllers, where something has an on/off state, the MIDI spec clarifies the toggle point (value 63 - 64, as you mentioned), but CC64 is continuous (0 to 127).

the instrument has to be able to do something with values other than ≤63 = off, ≥64 = on for this to have any meaning. I've seen CC64 lanes with more than the two values, but the instrument didn't do anything with that.

Is there any chance the half-pedal will be added to the Vienna Imperial? I know VSL is now focused on other pianos and technologies, but the Vienna Imperial is still a unique library, with particular strenghts, and a great and unrivalled sound.

It would be a shame not to complete it. I guess half-pedal could be simulated with some mixing between the pedal up and down samples. It should be satisfactory enough, and not a major programming challenge. Despite its age, it would be still an top piano, with all the needed features in a modern library.

The Böse is the piano I would go first for Bartók or Prokofiev. It's not a second choice.

Paolo

By reading the Vienna Imperial's manual, I see there is a "2sus" parameter. It is described this way:

"The 2sus Feature increases the realism of sustained notes that are pressed before the sustain pedal is activated."

I can't understand if this describes something similar to a repedalling or the half-pedal. Or, maybe it is just some type of sympatetic resonance without retriggering the key. Someone more knowledgeable than me can try to explain?

Paolo

Hi Paolo, 

This is best explained by listening, I think: Play a note without sustain, then press the sustain pedal. Do this with any without the 2sus feature enabled and you should hear the difference. 

Best,
Paul

Thank you, Paul. I see what you mean. It's the halo around a note, that is created by pressing down the damper pedal while the note is also pressed.

So, I renew my hope that the Vienna Imperial is not abandoned, and can see a refresh with the missing half-pedal (and possible repedalling?) feature – maybe with the algorhythms developed for the new CFX – to continue being the best, more resonant Viennese piano, even for the forthcoming years.

Paolo

Hi Paolo, 

To be honest, I don't think that an update for the Vienna Imperial is in the cards anytime soon. 

But I agree, the Vienna Imperial is a GREAT piano. 

Best, 
Paul

On a second thought, I think that 2sus may be considered what is elsewhere called "repedaling".

Paolo

Another thought on the Vienna Imperial issues.

- 2sus is not equivalent to repedalling. It's the freeing of the strings while a key is kept pressed, and not the resonance retriggered during the note release.

- In case the piano can be revised, I would be perfectly fine with half-pedal just increasing the release lenght, with lower notes proportionally longer than the others. One, or even two degrees of this simulated half-pedal would create a credible effect when in need of that subtle halo in some pieces of authors like Chopin or Debussy.

Please, VSL, despite being a great step for the playing humanity, I'm sure it is just a small step for your great software engineers! º‿º 

Paolo

Ok, I took some time to explore the various pedal combinations. What I found is that there is a sound of half pedal – only, it is not used!

Turn 2sus on. Play a note, and release it. Immediately press the damper pedal, before the note release ends.

What you can hear, is a halo that sounds nearly exactly as the half pedal: a subtle resonance, a distant sound remebering the damper pedal.

It would be just a matter of scripting this effect, to have a convincing half pedal simulation.

I'll say it again: Vienna Imperial is a great piano. It takes very little CPU, and not all that space on disk. It would be great to give it a second opportunity.

Paolo