@mikezaz_27157 said:

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought

 That's why it's utterly pointless Dietz claiming that they're not money-grabbing. I have to repeat that a license is just permission to use something - which can't be lost, stolen, or expire. I can kind of understand Vienna's thinking (although it's still flawed) in wanting more money for licenses where you'ce let the dongle fall into someone else's hands, but this is just downright wrong. You've paid for permission to use the samples, and there is absolutely nothing in their blurb about that permission ever expiring. The dongle may die, but that isn't what you paid for. Vienna are hoping to create a belief that the dongle and license are one and the same thing, which is simply not true. In cases like this, where you still actually have the dongle, and it can be verified that the licenses were on it, they have absolutely no grounds to charge you again. I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

http://www.ilok.com/ilok-rma.html

If your iLok is broken

Before you report your iLok as broken, please try to make sure that it is actually broken. If any of the following are true, then it is likely that your iLok is broken and needs to be replaced:

• The USB connector is loose, detached, or the case is visibly cracked.
• The light on the iLok is off when plugged into a known working USB port. Note that some non-powered USB hubs can be problematic. If you are using a hub, make sure it is powered.
• The light on the iLok is on, but iLok.com indicates that the iLok is not inserted when you try to view and refresh. Make sure you are using the very latest software by updating your software here.

If you have determined that your iLok is broken, please take note of the following points.

Warranty:

• The iLok is warranted to be free of defects for a period of one year.
• If your iLok is under warranty, PACE will replace your recovered licenses free of charge.
• If your iLok is physically damaged, any warranty is void.

How replacement works:

• You must provide us with a valid credit card to start the RMA License Recovery process. Your card may or may not be charged depending on the warranty status of your iLok. If charged, the cost for RMA License Recovery will be $39.95.
• You may choose to receive a free replacement iLok. Shipping and handling charges may apply, depending on warranty status.
• You must send your iLok to us as part of the RMA License Recovery process. If we do not receive your iLok, we cannot provide you with permanent replacement licenses.
• If your iLok is under warranty, we will provide permanent replacement licenses for recovered licenses at no charge.
• Replacement licenses will be deposited in your iLok.com account. You must download them to the iLok of your choice.

@Pingu said:

I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

That's easy.

We have to pay these license fees to Steinberg/Syncrosoft for all needed additional licenses.

By the way, if the dongle dies because of a malefunction of the dongle itself (not damaged by the user) within the product guarantee period, all needed new licenses are of course replaced for free.

best

Herb

@Pingu said:

I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

That's easy.

We have to pay these license fees to Steinberg/Syncrosoft for all needed additional licenses.

By the way, if the dongle dies because of a malefunction of the dongle itself (not damaged by the user) within the product guarantee period, all needed new licenses are of course replaced for free.

best

Herb

Hi Herb,

I certainly wouldn't say you guys are money grubbing or whatever, very far from it. I've loved your software for the three or so years I've used it (except of course for the nasty dongle problems that all Mac and Logic users seem to experience from time to time, but that's once again the fault of the dongle, and perhaps Apple, not of your company). Even before I owned the software I loved it - throughout high school I used to check up on the VSL page every week or so to be amazed by the demos you guys were putting up. It was a serious thrill to get enough extra scholarship money from my college to finally be able to afford the Special Edition back in 2007. 

However, as a student, this arrangement simply seems to be pricing me out of VSL. I had ideas of slowly acquiring all of your various instruments by reinvesting money I had earned through film scoring, which I've already started to do last year (hence why I have 5 licenses instead of the 1).

I suppose knowing what I know now, I would never keep more than 2 or so licenses on a single dongle, although this certainly seems daunting simply from a USB perspective (I'm sure pro users have one or more USB hubs devoted entirely to Vienna dongles). But also, I bought the software with the belief that I could use it with relative confidence for decades, maybe. Afterall, I'm still using the basic license I bought for software like Sibelius and Kontakt many many years ago (admittedly with upgrade fees every few years, but of course those fees are for new functionality). Hopefully you can see why this event has shaken my confidence in being a VSL consumer: until I'm at a point in my life where I can simply throw money at problems to fix them, it doesn't seem as unambiguously worth it as it did before.

I've been very impressed by your company's willingness to talk over these issues, and hope that it will continue.

Thanks,

Michael 

Wow! 30 dollar per license for a broken dongle is really a new information! I didn't even know that the dongle had a warranty!!! Essentially if the dongle is defective and it breaks after the warranty period it the user fault that licenses are stored on such a system?

Herb, what would happen if the damage to the dongle was caused by the user? Or by the user's computer?

That's really a bit sad,

Cesare

The latest from VSL support, for the benefit of this thread:

"I understand your concern. It might help to think of your Vienna Instruments products just like a real instrument. You have to restring every guitar every once in a while, to keep it in good tune. Our ViennaKeys have a warranty of two years, so you might want to consider exchanging your key every two years, to prevent it from failing. If the key breaks by itself within these two years, you'll get a new key and new licenses for free!
Another option would be to insure you products at a local insurance company.

Regarding your request, I'm afraid that can't give you a positive answer to exactly your proposition, sorry to say. But here's what I can do:
I can offer you the replacement licenses for only $10 per license (+ $10 handling fee) instead of the earlier mentioned $30 per license, if you purchase new Single Instrument Downloads with the residue of $100 (about EUR 72) that you would save by the lower price on the replacement licenses. You can even combine this with our current lottery offer, so maybe you're lucky and get an additional Single Instrument Download for free!

So here's again how this would happen: you purchase additional Single Instrument Downloads worth at least EUR 72 in our web shop, and you can then purchase the replacement licenses for your broken key for $60 (incl. handling fee and shipping, if you haven't purchased a replacement key yet - a replacement key ($36) is not included here).

I hope that you find this offer interesting."

I do find it interesting, and I'll have to think it through. By the way, I reccomend once this thread runs it's course, we make another that details everything we've found about vienna key loss and failure.

Last year I moved and lost my eLicense dongle for the SE. I emailed VSL and they told me there was no way to reactivate my license with a new dongle, but they would sell me a new license for $500! There was no way I was going to pay an additional $500 for a thousand dollar library. I tore my entire house apart and luckily after a week managed to find my dongle. But this experience really caused me to hesitate buying any additional VSL products.

I was seriously considering buying the Waves Silver bundle because of their ‘phone home' licensing option. But I ended up buying the Vienna Suite once they offered the student discount. And I've gone on to purchase the SE+.

I'd really love to be able to take my laptop with my VSL libraries to school with me every day as my teachers are all really impressed with them and they are such a joy to work with, but my dongle is now worth more then my Mac Book Pro! So now I just make an mp3 of my pieces to give to my teachers and leave my notebook at home.

I really wish VSL would offer a ‘phone home' option to renew your licenses every 60 days or so. It's so easy to misplace or lose a tiny USB dongle especially if you are traveling from site to site or gigging with your notebook.

Michael

@mikezaz_27157 said:

I understand your concern. It might help to think of your Vienna Instruments products just like a real instrument. You have to restring every guitar every once in a while, to keep it in good tune. Our ViennaKeys have a warranty of two years, so you might want to consider exchanging your key every two years, to prevent it from failing

which brings us back to the fact that the license is clearly now a piece of hardware - Vienna even want you to think of it that way - so I'm entitled to sell it.

Mikezaz,

I was actually thinking of building a small users-website listing all the information about the Vienna key. I am currently in the process of buying the domain. Apart from the time required I wonder whether it would be useful. I would really have liked to be given this information when I was deciding on my purchase thus maybe other people could benefit from our experiences. But maybe it is just a waste of time, what do you think?

Cesare

@cesare.magri said:

But maybe it is just a waste of time, what do you think?

I think a site like that would be very useful, but would have some limitations. It could serve as a warning of the somewhat hidden issues involved in buying VSL, which I think is important.

I think a more urgent need, though, is a very clear statement of procedures for each case, with Vienna's justification of those procedures (for instance it hadn't occurred to me how much they might be paying Syncrosoft for the generation of licenses), and I'm not sure it's possible for a 3rd party to manage that. As someone said, earlier in the thread, there is a slight feel that Vienna make it up as they go along, so outlining the solution they offer in one case isn't necessarily a guarantee that that's how they will treat the next.

That is right. The site could only point out the fact that the licenses and the key are essentially the same thing (although it is unclear whether Vienna considers the key like a license or like a separate hardware or like a musical instrument). Thus the site should warn about the problems arising from stolen/loss/braking/defects/warranty and the fact that no backup is possible. It is indeed impossible to describe the exact consequences of these problems in details (e.g. paying 50% or buying something else or whatever) since everything is so "blurred". Maybe a Wikipedia page on "Vienna Key" could also do the job similar to what they did for the iLok. The advantage of this is that there Vienna could also add its point of view which would be fair.

Cesare

 Just out of interest, has anyone tried moving the Cubase license between dongles? I'm now thinking of taking Herb's recommendation, and replacing my elicensers periodically, but I'm not clear whether the Cubase license can be moved around in the same way as the Vienna ones.

I asked Herb for a statistic -- and it would be helpful to know this...

In the history of the syncrosoft dongle technology used by VSL, HOW MANY actual dongle failures NOT attributed to physical abuse (they simply stopped working without any external influences) has VSL encountered? Not asking about lost/stolen or "my dog ate it" cases -- simply, "it stopped working for no apparent reason" cases ???

Is this a concern for the average user, who simply plugs it in once, never moves it, never risks physical damage. HAS a Vienna Key/Steinberg Key EVER simply failed for no physical reason that's known to VSL? How many since the beginning of time?

If the answer is 0 out of 10,000 over 5 years, this discussion is wasting time, yes?

Thx

J

@mikezaz_27157 said:

I understand your concern. It might help to think of your Vienna Instruments products just like a real instrument. You have to restring every guitar every once in a while, to keep it in good tune. Our ViennaKeys have a warranty of two years, so you might want to consider exchanging your key every two years, to prevent it from failing

which brings us back to the fact that the license is clearly now a piece of hardware - Vienna even want you to think of it that way - so I'm entitled to sell it.

Bingo.

Slippery slope of law here...

@cesare.magri said:

Martin,

The dongle insurance price in England seems indeed good: does it also cover loss? Is it international (i.e. can you bring the key in a foreign country)? I wonder whether there is anything like this in Germany. However, still, the idea of having to get an insurance for a software sounds really a bit excessive to me, independently of the price.

Cesare

The insurance can be adjusted to cover the UK, EU or worldwide. As I require insurance for my studio regardless, it really isn't a big deal for me to pay a bit extra to cover software licenses.

M

I found out about the ECC (European Consumers Centres' Network), a costumer right association from the european community. On the website of your country you can find a form (the cross border compliant form) like this

http://www.eccireland.ie/downloads/ares_PROD_eccnet_normal_complaint_35.pdf

where it is possible to point out non-transparent commercial practices. I'll try to send it since I believe that the users were not provided the essential information about the Vienna key. This was also confirmed by the sale manager at when I pointed it out:

"As a reaction to the points you made regarding the replacement license, we will include this information in our Terms of License. You can find our Terms of License here (the link is placed on the bottom of every single webpage on our website): http://vsl.co.at/en/65/75/443/522/340.vsl I want to emphasize that we didn't want to hold back this information from you and our other users, it indeed seems that it has been overlooked that this information should be included in the Terms of License (even if it is not required)."

After this email they've added the following line in Terms of licence page:

"Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH" but this sounds far from clear. Apart from the fact that

Apart from the fact that many of use were not even given this information at the time of their purchase I still think that this sentence is not clear enough, user should be given a clear description of what losses/stolen/damages might cost and what is the procedure. Things need to be more transparent.

Cheers,

Cesare

 As it happens my home insurance is up for renewal, and I've decided to change provider. In the process I asked the new provider if they would cover the software licenses on my dongles, and was quite surprised to find that they will. Don't know how much it's going to shove up my premiums yet. I may never be able to tell, since I have quite few other high risk items, such as my CD collection. But if I can determine how much of the premium my VSL stuff accounts for I'll let you know.

VSL had a problem. They solved the problem by making it your problem. We could make it their problem again by not buying their products until a reasonable solution is proposed. Unfortunately we didn't do that and we bought their software "as is". Now they have no motivation to do the right thing. Too bad, an optional timed out license is the obvious solution and is a win for all. 

Right, but how could we know? Conditions are not clearly written anywhere, not even in the "License Warranty and License Agreement" you get with the key or the boxed products. Only now they have added a blurry short sentence in the Terms of license.

There should be an easily accessible page explaining things clearly:

- that the license and the key are the SAME thing.

- what are the consequences of stolen, lost keys?

- what happens with broken dongles? what is the exact procedure?

- that you should periodically replace your dongle to keep it in the warranty range?

- how much are you expected to pay in each case?

This "contact us and we will see" is an extremely non-clear and unfair procedure. Why should each costumer get a different treatment. Why should costumers not be informed?

Why were we not clearly informed when we bought our products? I simply would not have purchased it but probably others would have anyways, so why not inform?

Best,

Cesare