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  4. Vienna Suite: How many convo reverb instances with Logic possible?

  • Vienna Suite: How many convo reverb instances with Logic possible?

    J
    J

    Seems like on my 8-core Mac Pro, running AudioCore at 256 samples, I only get one, at the most two, VS convolution reverbs out of my system before Logic is running into CPU resource issues. The strange part is that as I add the reverb plug-in, the CPU meter for a single CPU starts jumping up (on audio present). Successive plug-ins of the reverb keep increasing that same CPU until it hits red and audio starts breaking up.

    I was under the impressions that the VS convolution reverb is extremely gentle on resources, so this comes as a complete surprise. I can only assume that there is something wrong with the setup.

    So, this begs the question of how many reverb plug-ins are possible with the system, and why only one CPU is being used?

    Any insight is much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    JB
  • M
    M

    I'm not on Mac and have no idea but I can run like 8 instances (plus various EQ and so on) on a low clocked core 2 quad and barely hit the 50% mark. That is on a standalone VE slave, though. I get quite less within Cubase but the DAW's CPU is totally outdated and needs to be replaced soon.

    So it can't be the CR - it's light as a feather compared to the competition. :)
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

     i remember some post mentioning it depends on the mode logic runs in (live mode or such) when it can access only one CPU ...

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • J
    J

    I've noticed that too. Seems to be a CoreAudio issue, as moving the reverb plug-in to Bidule (connected to Logic via ReWire) seems to have the same effect of increasing the CPU meter in Logic. The reverb plug-in is not even running in Logic, but the meter in Logic goes up. 
  • civilization 3C
    civilization 3C

    I am working in Cubase. At this moment, I have the buffer at 768, I'm mixing. I feel like I could add convolution til the cows come home. I have 16 instances up of Vienna Suite (two of them are cathedral convolutions, of 3 convo verbs in all), six Kontakt multis (all loaded with all sorts of convo inside), BFD2  exporting 18 audio tracks on top of the master stereo (a 32 piece kit, almost all being used), and about half a dozen other audio tracks. And some Absynth, two instances. A couple amp sims in Guitar Rig3. (I did finally freeze two Kontakts). (The Convo here isn't really making that much of the dent...)

    I'm hitting the CPU meter at 16, 17% in this project. The cores are fairly, though not absolutely evenly working, by the graphic crawl in activity monitor. It's fricken Godzilla here. I don't think you could blame core audio. I am using four drives, though, and they're *managed*.

    What audio interface are you using?
  • J
    J

    I'm running this with a MOTU 2408mk2

    There is a difference between the Mac Pro's CPU meter, which is in line with what you quoted, and the meter in Logic, which I assume shows the CoreAudio performance. Thus the assumption that we're looking at a CoreAudio issue.

    There is nothing else happening in the Logic project. I have VE running on a dedicated second system and just for test purposes I set up a Logic project with just four software instrument tracks, each having a different VE instance assigned (again, audio coming from the dedicated second system via LAN.) Each instrument tracks is going to a separate AUX track where I have the convolution reverbs assigned.

    So, overall, nothing in terms of system CPU intensive, or audio track intensive. Still, the Logic CPU meter will register an overload. So again, I think there's something else going on.
  • civilization 3C
    civilization 3C

    Not by way of trying to alarm you, but before I got my current interface (RME multiface 2), I was using, trying to use, a MOTU 828mk2 with this system (2x quad 2.93, 16GB). I was seriously overloading the CPU in projects with, I don't know, less than 10% of what I have going on today. I couldn't even get a mixdown, everything was rife with clipping, and the most drastic, complete dropouts of audio you even want to have in your worst nightmare. Clipping and vsti channels just freaking out like I was going for the most extreme levels, where that just wasn't what was in the project. I looked around for a few days online, and people all over were kvetching about their MOTU, drivers, or firmware issues, all sorts of calamities going on. I really don't think the current (if any) MOTU drivers are right for this CPU.

    You think there's something else going on, in any case I do as well. I'd take a good look at this if I were you.
  • civilization 3C
    civilization 3C
    last edited
    last edited

    Compare your information:

    @Jurgen Beck said:

    I'm running this with a MOTU 2408mk2

    [The] difference between the Mac Pro's CPU meter, which is in line with what you quoted, and the meter in Logic... Thus the assumption that we're looking at a CoreAudio issue.

    There is nothing else happening in the Logic project. I have VE running on a dedicated second system and just for test purposes I set up a Logic project with just four software instrument tracks, each having a different VE instance assigned (again, audio coming from the dedicated second system via LAN.) Each instrument tracks is going to a separate AUX track where I have the convolution reverbs assigned.

    So, overall, nothing in terms of system CPU intensive, or audio track intensive. Still, the Logic CPU meter will register an overload. So again, I think there's something else going on.

    with what I just talked about with my previous setup. It is a core audio issue with the interface's driver, I'd bet money.
  • C
    C

    I've experienced the same issue in Logic using Vienna Suite Reverb.  Two instances MAX.  I switched to Cubase and was able to load three but now my fans run at very high speed and eventually my Large UPS begins to beep and within a 30 seconds my machine shuts down.  Appears to be a CPU overload.  It appears that Logic doesn't allow it and Cubase lets it go until the system can't handle it.  Just had this happen two days ago and haven't had the time to investigate further at this point.

    The funny thing was that I was working on a template in Cubase & VE that had two instances of Vienna reverb.  The entire day I was building the template there didn't seem to be an issue.  I saved the work and shut down the computer for the night.  The next morning I went to load the template and the fans began to run like a jet engine then the UPS began to beep, then the computer shut down.  Several tries latter, I went to an earlier version (before I set up the reverb busses) and everything was ok.  The problem reappeared once I began loading the reverbs again.
  • J
    J

    Chuck, what audio card do you have in your system?
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

    fans went into jet-mode, ups overloads .... probably all CPUs are at 100%?

    have you considered you may have set up a loop with busses ... this sounds somehow like taht

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • C
    C

    Hi Jurgen,

    I'm using the Apogee Ensemble...
  • C
    C

    Hi Christian,

    I don't believe I have a Bus Loop in place but it's worth rechecking......  I recall the CPU being about 60%.  Also the strange thing is the fact that it was all right the day before then from a fresh startup the jets kicked in.....
  • J
    J
    last edited
    last edited

    @Chuck Green said:

    Hi Jurgen,

    I'm using the Apogee Ensemble...

    Interesting. Well, I just ordered an RME HDSPe card for our Mac Pro (already have an RME Multiface with another system here.) I'll let you all know how the driver switch from MOTU to RME fairs with the CPU overload issue.
  • C
    C

    I have always found RME to be superior in almost all cases.  They really have their ducks in a row when it comes to their hardware and writing driver support.  I actually compared the RME and Apogee side by side for one month.  ended up buying the RME (was my 3rd RME product.

    Maestro2be
  • J
    J

    Alright. We put an RME HDSPe card into the Mac Pro, connected to an RME Multiface. The MOTU 2408mkII is completely out of the picture at this point.

    With the RME card I am getting the same results with CPU overload as with the MOTU card. So, it's save to assume that this is not audio card driver related, as the behavior is the same with two different audio cards.

    What seems to be happening though is that as long as Logic also functions as a ReWire host, we are having these issues. If ReWire is taken out of the picture, Logic will spread the CPU load evenly and I am fine creating a large number of convolution reverb instances. I have stopped at setting up 6 instances, as that was way more than what I got with Logic functioning as a ReWire host. Even with 6 instances, the load was way below using a third of what the system seems to be able to handle.

    All this points at a significant issue when Logic operates as a ReWire host and audio is present on the ReWire channels. At that point Logic seems to be switching almost all processing to a single CPU (indicated in the Logic meter, not the system CPU meters), which obviously starts overloading the system.

    Unless someone has a solution for this issue, it seems that ReWire with Logic significantly impairs the use of processor intensive plug-ins, at least in version 8.
  • C
    C

    Hi Jurgen,

    Just some additional info using EW PLAY observations with Logic 8.  If used as a instance (1 instrument) in Logic 8, 1 core is used.  Add a second, 2 cores are used... etc.  If you use it as a multi (16 channels) only 1 core is used.  EW recommendations are to use multiple instances rather than a single multi in order to spread the workload across all cores.  I've tested this and it appears to be the case when viewing the Logic CPU meter which by the way doesn't agree with the OS CPU meter which appears to be spreading across all cores regardless whether I use multiple singles or a multi.  In Cubase it seems to spread but I reach a point where my fans Kick in on High Speed indicating that the CPU is really being task even though the OS Meters are only at 60%. 

    I know you are working with VSL and the reason I bring this up is there seems to be some inconsistency between sequencer CPU meters and the OS meters and how cores are being utilized.  Maybe this additional info may help shed some light on your situation.
  • J
    J
    last edited
    last edited

    @Chuck Green said:

    Hi Jurgen,

    Just some additional info using EW PLAY observations with Logic 8.  If used as a instance (1 instrument) in Logic 8, 1 core is used.  Add a second, 2 cores are used... etc.  If you use it as a multi (16 channels) only 1 core is used.  EW recommendations are to use multiple instances rather than a single multi in order to spread the workload across all cores.  I've tested this and it appears to be the case when viewing the Logic CPU meter which by the way doesn't agree with the OS CPU meter which appears to be spreading across all cores regardless whether I use multiple singles or a multi.  In Cubase it seems to spread but I reach a point where my fans Kick in on High Speed indicating that the CPU is really being task even though the OS Meters are only at 60%. 

    I know you are working with VSL and the reason I bring this up is there seems to be some inconsistency between sequencer CPU meters and the OS meters and how cores are being utilized.  Maybe this additional info may help shed some light on your situation.

    Thanks for the clarification, Chuck. I indeed was aware of the multiple instances recommendation. This fact is actually evident when taking ReWire out of the picture and using the VSL VE instances directly in Logic 8, which then spreads the load of the convo reverb plug-ins across the Logic CPU meters.

    The reason why ReWire is in the picture at this point is, because I am running all my virtual instruments (VSL and EW) on a different workstation and the current version of VE has the habit of clearing all instruments when I change projects in Logic. I have a full orchestra template loaded on the workstation, so my workflow is VE/EW instruments (on second workstation) -> Bidule (running on my sequence DAW where I also have Logic running) -> Logic via ReWire.

    Using Bidule in Logic via ReWire has multiple channel support, but seems to be reducing Logic to a single CPU focused app (not technically, but realistically as experienced and outlined in the earlier post), including any convolution reverbs that I may be running in Logic.

    So, all this to say that Logic has a bottle neck in terms of using ReWire, which may force a different templating setup.

    Can't wait for VE Pro. 😊
  • T
    T

    Just done a quick test on a project with 16 VIs and 4 instances of VS Reverb - playing live on a Macbook Pro (late 2008, 4GB) with the internal sound card at 256 samples I am getting about 60%-80% CPU usage on one core (as opposed to both as I'm in live mode).

    Tim
  • C
    C

    Hi Tim,

    I'm somewhat new to Logic versus Cubase....  I hear people speak of LIVE mode.  Is there a setting that allows one to switch to non-live?