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  4. Lexicon vs. convolution
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @Brian said:

    Hi Dietz,

     

    I'm not sure I understand this statement.  It is my understanding that any sound source that goes through a microphone and ends up on a hard drive is sampled...whether it's used as a sample library or not doesn't change the fact that the information on the hard drive is a digital representation (i.e. a sample) of a physical waveform of air molecules.  Yet people use synthetic reverbs with digital audio data all the time?

     

    Brian

    "Sampled" opposed to "synthetic" sources. Of course, convolution reverb behaves nicely with "recorded" real instruments, too. The point I was trying to make was that I prefer convolution reverb to synthetic reverb when it comes to the interaction - or call it "blend" - between the instrument(s) and the room they are meant to play in.

    ... of course, like everybody else I use synthetic reverb all the time for typical modern pop/rock/r&B-mixes, where the single signals are most of the time _supposed_ to be up-front, in your face, and clearly separated from each other.
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • B
    B
    Thanks Dietz!  Can't wait to hear MIR in action!!! [:D]
  • W
    W

    "I prefer convolution reverb to synthetic reverb when it comes to the interaction - or call it "blend" - between the instrument(s) and the room they are meant to play in."  - Dietz

    I have noticed this and the "reverb as instrument" sound in the Dietz mixes which are a very rich artistic blend of the instruments rather than a mechanically applied procedure.  I noticed this particularly in his mix of "Prospice" which - because I did a mix previously myself - was shocking to hear.  It was something like comparing Picasso (Dietz) to a chimp (me).
  • D
    D

    I like to use both sorts of reverb. The convolution gives a good feeling of a space and the synthetic gives a warmness and thickness to the samples, as long as it is used sparingly. For media work the Lexicon sound is sort of excepted, but for other types of work, convolution alone night be the ticket.

    DG
  • C
    C
    Hi William. I am familiar with a little of Picasso's work but as yet have no knolwedge of any artworks by a chimp. Is there a web address you could direct us to that features such works so that we can make a more informed judgement in relation to the gulf between your and Dietz's mixing abilities!!! ....Colin.
  • W
    W

    Elegy   -     http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4729.vsl

      

    Apotheosis, March (something else?)   -    http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3848/4689.vsl

    Albinoni  -   http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4687.vsl

    Vaughn Williams (2nd symphony movement)  -    http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4701.vsl

    Borodin "In the Steppes..."  -   http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4943.vsl

    a couple others I think...
  • C
    C
    Hi William. I have already listened to your own compositions which you have posted on this site and enjoyed them very much. I am not usually particularly keen on orchestral song, but was impressed by Prospice. When I asked you to post some sites for me to visit, I was actually meaning those displaying the artwork of chimps, but am grateful for the links above and shall listen to them instead!..Colin.
  • W
    W

    I didn't mean to make that last post bold btw.

      

    The main thing concerning this I am thinking about is how everyone uses convolution because it is supposed to be more real.  But that is only the theory behind it.  There is in fact absolutely NOTHING real about it or recording/sampling in general.  It is all fake. If you want reality go to a live event.   A modeled, artificial reverb is an emulation that may sound more real than the theoretically more realistic convolution.

    Anyway that is my theory du jour. I will probably contradict it completely tomorrow.
  • A
    A

    William,

    your intuition is intact! The cheapest Lexicon Digital Reverberator produces nicer reverberation then all of the plugins together, where Lexicons are not the only hardware processor which have a good reverberation sound. For orchestral, as well any other recorded music, the most important parameters are those for the early reflections. A Lexicon Digital Reverberator features parameters to program the important reflections, as well parameter to make the reverberation more real, for example:

    Mid Reverb Time & Low Reverb Time:

    this for example permits you to program a boomy gran cassa, and at the same time a shorter Mid decay.

    Diffusion:

    controls how initial echo density increases over time.

    Attack:

    high settings cause an explosive sound, while low settings cause the sound to build up slowly with time with distances, this all within the critical first 50 milliseconds, and programmable that a loud burst make the room sort of explode.

    In Width:

    for example 45° is a normal stereo reverberation effect, while 90° excludes any nono center signal from the reverberator.

    Delay & Feedback:

    for wall reflection, including feedback path

    etc. etc.

    .
  • W
    W

    Thanks for that info Angelo.

  • S
    S
    I like the sound of chorused Lexicon reverb. I was listening to some '90s John Williams ('Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets,' 'The Williams/Spielberg Collaboration Vol 2') and there is very obvious synthetic, chorused reverb on those. Especially the Will/Spiel Vol 2 CD, the reverb on that is insane! Convolution reverbs don't have this chorus or "swirl" setting, perhaps that's why they can sound a bit boring. I'm saving my money towards a Lexicon PCM96 Surround. That piece sounds amazing. You can use it as two stereo or one surround plug-in in your DAW. They just released new firmware which people claim is fixing the bugs that people ran into early on. Pricey though!
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @Angelo Clematide said:

    [...] The cheapest Lexicon Digital Reverberator produces nicer reverberation then all of the plugins together [...]
    I know that you just wanted to make a point, Angelo, because taken literally, this is just on of those famous urban lengends in studio-land.

    Personally, I would prefer a t.c. electronic VSS3-algorithm or DigiDesign's ReVibe to an LXP-1 or LXP-5 any day. And convolution as a different animal alltogether.
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • A
    A
    last edited
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    @Dietz said:

    .... famous urban lengends in studio-land.

    Personally, I would prefer a t.c. electronic VSS3-algorithm or DigiDesign's ReVibe to an LXP-1 or LXP-5 any day. And convolution as a different animal alltogether.

    I like your Österreichisch-Ungarischen humour !!!

    urban

    http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/Angelo-Clematide/Racks.jpg

    legend

    http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/Angelo-Clematide/Credenza.jpg

    me in studioland

    http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/Angelo-Clematide/DSCF0013.jpg

    mixed

    http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/Angelo-Clematide/askbn_widerange.jpg

    mastered

    http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/Angelo-Clematide/askbn_45dBrms.jpg

    mastering engineer

    http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/Angelo-Clematide/Dog.jpg

    .
  • P
    P
    I'm thinking about this one.

    http://www.lexiconpro.com/AES_Events.aspx
  • D
    D
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    @PaulR said:

    I'm thinking about this one.

    http://www.lexiconpro.com/AES_Events.aspx

    I'm just about to hire one of these to demo it. I'll let you know what I think. It will be interesting to compare it with the Bricasti M7.


    DG
  • P
    P
    Cheers Daryl. I'm not sure I would want to use one of these for placement of instruments etc even though that is technically no problem - but I'd be interested in what you think of it as an overall application of reverb to the entire sound. Apparently it works well within a computer environment - but only with Macs currently I understand.
  • D
    D
    last edited
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    @PaulR said:

    Cheers Daryl. I'm not sure I would want to use one of these for placement of instruments etc even though that is technically no problem - but I'd be interested in what you think of it as an overall application of reverb to the entire sound. Apparently it works well within a computer environment - but only with Macs currently I understand.

    I'm not intending to use it for placement., I use Altiverb for that. However, on a recent project I hired a Bricasti to add a bit of extra tail, and much preferred this to adding an Altivertb tail, even with a Lexicon preset.

    You're right about the plugin only working on OSX at the moment, but as I'm using Nuendo that doesn't really matter.

    DG
  • J
    J

     DG,

    I have a PCM 96 and love its sound. The range of presets, apparent depth and great tails make it sit great in the mix. It is much, much, much beefier sounding than convolution reverbs like Altiverb. (Yes, I have Altiverb and use it every day.) 

    Lexicon finally delivered the software to allow for two simultaneous stereo instances via FW.

    Of course I believe you are on PC so the software version won't be of use to you since it's Mac-only. The software is a little skittish though. On Logic you do need to play with the Preferences' send and buffer settings now and then. Especially if you have VE3 on another computer.

    I ordered a Bricasti yesterday. Quite excited about it arriving. Might be a couple weeks before I get it an get it set up. Apparently according to Apogee I won't be able to use the Rosetta 800's Dig i/o with it. Well, actually only either out or in. I'll have to find out more from Apogee today on that. I'll probably go out dig and come back in analog.

    Overall the reputation of these 2 boxes are:

    PCM 96 - lots of great sounds,  2 simultaneous instances of stereo via FW, great price

    Bricasti - intensely wonderful rooms, halls & plates, no FX,  one instance only, no computer control, more expensive (remote alone is $2100) 

  • B
    B
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    @Jack Weaver said:

    Apparently according to Apogee I won't be able to use the Rosetta 800's Dig i/o with it (Bricasti M7). Well, actually only either out or in. I'll have to find out more from Apogee today on that. I'll probably go out dig and come back in analog.

    Hi Jack,

    Do you happen to know if this issue also occurs with the Rosetta 200?  I assume you're talking about the AES in/outs. I checked the Apogee website and searched the internet, but couldn't find any information on this issue.

    Thanks, Brian
  • J
    J

    If you have a card in the expansion slot it disables the regular dig i/o on the Rosetta.