@Errikos said:

How many times are we expected to spend thousands for your 'copied'-'pasted' onto DVDs same sounds that we have already licensed? Not for new sounds, not for extra articulations, but for the thousands of samples that we already have

with all due respect and noticing your particular situation - it is far away from beeing copied&pasted ...

christian

@Another User said:

now - and lets face it - there are already more VI users than sample library users and the possible upgrade paths have to reflect that ...

I'm still not sure that I fully understand the difficulty of maintaining both upgrade paths. I have to admit that I don't understand the whole minefield of the individual instruments coming out, and I can see that there is a potential nightmare in allowing customers to mix and match upgrade paths. For instance I can see where a customer might say 'I have the Pro Library, and I've now bought the individual downloadable trumpet; how much do I get off the Brass I VI now?'

But what if you were to just keep the two routes entirely separate i.e. those with the Giga libraries can continue to use them to upgrade to complete VI extended collections, but no other products can be taken into account to produce a further discount. I had every intention of upgrading to all the complete collections. Nothing else was ever promised as I bought my libraries, and I don't expect to be included in anything else (other than offers for the users of the complete collections that I buy). If this were made clear now then there shouldn't be a problem. If, for instance, someone has the Pro Library, and does buy the individual trumpet, and then asks how much to upgrade to the whole of Brass I, the answer is either the price of the upgrade from the Pro Library, or the price of the upgrade from the downloadable trumpet - but not a combination. 

The only flaw I see is if there are many customers who have already bought the Pro Library, and then bought SE, but I can't see that many would have gone down that route at all.

@Another User said:

the whole minefield of the individual instruments coming out

*minefield* - that fits pretty well to what is approaching ... you actually continued with some examples .. but honestly: shouldn't we expect exactly the same arguments we have read in this thread again then ... despite of any possible related announcement (choose upgrade path)

christian

@Pingu said:

I wouldn't go down that route Christian

read ahead my post ... i wrote *VSL does not*

Sorry, you're quite right, I did miss that.

@Enlighten said:

And does the fact that there are more VI users than sample library users justify the fact that the upgrade paths of the sample library users should be wiped out if they don't shell out thousands of dollars in the next 3-6 months?

am i supposed to answer to someone who does neither provide his real name nor address information, but just a throw-away email address, does not have any products registered and 2 posts?

enlighten me please, christian

I already mentioned in my first post that I don't currently own any VSL products and that I've been interested in the SE. What a nice way to treat your potential customers.

@Enlighten said:

I already mentioned in my first post that I don't currently own any VSL products and that I've been interested in the SE.

@steff3 said:

... for the samples you already own

licensed, steff, licensed ... samples are owned by VSL ... just to have that said agin ...

@herb said:

I don't think so:

- Most of our users are excusively Vienna Instrument users, never licensed a Sample Library from us.

- Most of our Sample Library users have already upgraded

- A lot of users like to get the "Free Extended Offers" with this final upgrade sale

- all users who really want to upgrade but do have problems with the funding, could contact their distributors  to make a setup

So finally there are all users, who prefer their Kontakt, Giga, EXS platforms, and don't want to make a change,

but they also don't want to loose their theoretical upgrade option.

I'm sorry, that I don't have a convincing solution in this case.  

best

Herb

Dear Herb and Christian,

Thanks for replying. It's good to know that you're looking in on the thread and reading what we're saying.

I think you can probably tell from looking at my account that I'm don't prefer the Giga library and have every intention of upgrading. I've bought 4 VI's (3 of them upgrades) since December 2007 and it would have been more over the last year and a half if only you'd warned me that the upgrade path was time limited. I made my buying decisions based in part on the knowledge that I could upgrade at any time.

I'm happy to accept the Pro Ed is old(er) technology. If VSL want to reduce the value of our discounts to reflect that then I'd be happy with that too. I'm interested in looking at any options that would enable VSL to get around cutting off upgrades for the old libraries for as long as possible. If that means accepting some depreciation of our investment so be it - thus is the nature of technology.

I'm not making demands, or issuing ultimatums. I'm not ranting about betrayal or saying I'm never buying VSL again. I'm just a user who has already started upgrading and I'm politely asking if there's any chance of the management at VSL reconsidering the time limits on this policy.

Please guys - help us find a way around this if at all possible.

Regards,

Martin

If I might be indulged one final comment...

If VSL, in its marketing from the beginning, had said something like, "In the future, when VSL releases an upgraded package - or new software -  users will have one year in which to purchase these products at a reduced upgrade price."...I don't think anyone would have complained.  In fact, I'm pretty sure they would have been lauded for their exceptional upgrade policy.  I, for one, would have have thought it more than fair.

But that's NOT what they did.  And while I've been reading all the discussion about whether or not VI contains the same samples, the legal ramifications, want vs. need, etc. - the fact is, VSL did one simple thing...they made a promise to their customers. Speaking only for myself, the decision to postpone upgrading was based on this promise. (And financial realities - which aren't relevent to anyone but me).  But they changed their mind, changed the game - and in so doing, fundamentally changed my impression of the way they do business. 

It's basic credibility. If they changed their mind on this, how do we know they won't change it on something else in the future?  That's not a personal attack or an insult.  I'm not calling anyone a liar or a cheat here.  It's just an observation that, for me, will impact the dependability of what they have to say going forward.  It's a business decision. That's it.  

I hate it when these things get personal.  I still have great admiration for Herb and his team.  I don't take anything away from their amazing accomplishments, and I'm still getting my work done with Pro Edition and all the Horizon collections.  (Albeit more slowly than if I had VI.)  I'll either find a way to upgrade within six months or I won't.  (If not, I suspect it'll be never.)  But to me, if I strip away all the emotion and all the technical arguments, it still comes down to one simple thing.  Keep your promises.  And if you can't keep your promises, have a good explanation for why.  So far - I haven't heard one.

In the end, PaulR is right.  They'll do what they do.  We'll do what we do.  We'll all move on.  I've always made music with the tools at hand, and that won't change.

Fred Story 

@julian said:

 

 

 Bummer... my son's a big Liverpool supporter... oops! off topic.

 

Julian

 

 Christian & Herb:

Thanks very much for responding on this thread and for trying to give some further explanation of the reasons for your recently announced change in upgrade policy.

As to what has been happening on this thread, I think that the following example has some relevance:  If one takes an action that was, in one's own judgement, rational and innoucuous, which, nevertheless elicits a surprisingly intense negative reaction from a friend, it usually doesn't help the situation, if one does not express some understanding of why one's friend has become upset.

People's perception is that VSL made a promise of an upgrade path, a promise that stated:

" VIP the Vienna Innovation Program Become a charter member of VIP as the Vienna Symphonic Library gradually expands to 1.5 million samples. Upgrade to bigger collections on hard disks at affordable prices. Cross-grade to future software latforms and technologies and feel safe in the knowledge that your investment in the future of orchestral music production will last a lifetime." 

 A lot of people whose voices you hear on this forum perceive that VSL's recently announced change in upgrade policy appears inconsistent with the promise made or implied in the above quoted statement.

There may be very good reasons for (what many perceive as) a radical change in your upgrade policy, but you have not yet explained them in a way that calms the waters. I would suggest to you that, however angry, upset and dismayed the responses you read here may be - - that most of these responses come from people who are friends of VSL - - and that, indeed,  it is their very faith and trust in VSL that has made their response so intense. VSL has created a unique spirit of collaborative community among its users - - and people don't want to lose that, but now feel it is threatened. 

As long as VSL does not admit that there has been a change in policy that may adversely affect a significant group of its earliest customers and does not provide something like a clear explanation of why this change was necessary, the upset is likely to continue. If, for example, as you say, this change affects a relatively small number of people, couldn't some mutually satisfactory compromise be worked out? If this change in policy will result - - as you seem to suggest - - in new upgrade possibilities for those who have invested in (licenses for) the Vienna Instrument Libraries, then it might be helpful to spell this out sooner rather than later.

Please remember that as you know, I am not personally affected by this recently announced policy change. Because of that, you  might wonder why I've spoken out on this issue. The answer is that I am concerned about the potential negative effect on how VSL is perceived by its customers - - and therefore, a potential negative effect on VSL's long term survival. My personal stake is that I want VSL not only to survive, but to thrive. That means that if I think that you are doing something that is counter-productive to that goal, I feel bound to speak up about it. 

As I have said many times, I have greatest respect for you, for VSL's products, its unique commitment to excellence, its innovation, its responsiveness to technical issues. In fact, aside from the current situation, I can think of no other company that has fostered anything like the level of creative interaction with customers that VSL has encouraged from the start - - so I hope you will listen to what I say as the thoughts of a friend. 

 FOR CHRISTIAN

@Errikos said:

How many times are we expected to spend thousands for your 'copied'-'pasted' onto DVDs same sounds that we have already licensed? Not for new sounds, not for extra articulations, but for the thousands of samples that we already have

with all due respect and noticing your particular situation - it is far away from beeing copied&pasted ...

christian

At the speed replies and comments are being posted in this thread I wanted to give myself better chances of you seeing my reply Christian, hence the capitals at the beginning...

Thank you for the due respect and noticing, it is mutual, I wish the company would extend some too.. So, the sounds are far from being copied and pasted. So what? Has anybody here refused to reimburse VSL for any technological advances of the products? Has anybody here foamed in the mouth about a sensible premium for when they upgrade to an improved version of the VSL? Categorically no!

However, what about all the other questions I have asked? I cannot keep re-typing them in ten different versions... Our justified anxiety I have to say has been very poorly met, and the management's responses have been vague and tergiversational and continuously missing the mark...

And for all who (deliberately?) misconstrue this situation, read the following, as many times as you have to, until it sinks in:

This is NOT about VSL's customers wants or needs - that refers to non-possession. This is about something we already OWN being taken away from us. What? The right to a lifetime of possibility of upgrade, something we paid for when we first purchased the product.

Since the product is not dropped and VSL is not starting to build harmonicas, the above is not an expectation, it is a given privilege.

In a way we have invested in the development of an improved product, and now we are being denied the return (excepting the aforementioned premium which, like with all other software we own, we are happy to pay).

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

Herb,

Thanks for listening and interacting, btw.  Your responses, however, are rather misleading and contradictory, as the peoples' reactions to your words have illustrated.

Just because I represent the minority of VSL users doesn't mean that you should discard our eligibility.  It is, in fact, FOR the majority of VI users that you should retain the upgrades to at least the existing products.  Why?  Because the end of the VIP means that THEY ARE NEXT.

So even when you say "All future updates of the Vienna Instruments software will be for free"   ...Oh, sure that's what you say NOW...

Who's gonna believe you?

Not me. Not anymore.

Clark

@cm said:

btw: interesting to read your understanding of the term *patronage* and your expressing of solidarity - it seems you are one of the potential users who are intending to purchase the full super packege and so do not care about future upgrade paths from the smaller libraries to the big collections.

christian

Christian,

I am considering the Special Edition package right now. Ironically, I am not concerned at all about the upgrades from that package. Just over $400 is not a huge commitment on my part to your company. I look at it as testing the waters to see if your libraries work for me. If I like it I would buy more. The guys that have really invested 1000's of dollars in VSL product are the guys that I'm hurting for. They have shown much more commitment and loyalty than anyone buying the SE. I think this is the point that alot of guys are trying to make. Those that helped you the most, floating VSL for the last years,  are being treated unfairly while any new comer (like me) will seemingly be treated better. And no, I don't think I could ever justify the "full super package". I like to eat too! 😉 (but never say never!)

All the very best,

Darren