"percussing on a nearby surface..."
I do that too and once started percussing on a window a little too hard.
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@PaulR said:
Not sure if North by North West can be classed as a melody.Well, I count anything I can hum as a melody, and I can certainly hum NbNW (although I'm likely to start percussing on a nearby surface too, if I'm sufficiently carried away with it).
In that case - Vertigo and Psycho by Bernard Herrmann.
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The Patton filmscore is very good and I remember Jerry Goldsmith's echoing brass throughout, which was quite new to me at the time. He would do that every now and again throughout his career - but none so effectively as in Alien with the echoing strings. Schindler's List is great and in D minor I believe - but the Starwars track Bill mentions is unbelievably good. I also like the main Jurassic Park theme immensely - great writing. I watched The Quiller Memorandum yesterday and that reminds me of John Barry. The Ipcress File is one of my favourite opening filmscores. For an opening filmscore title work to be memorable - it has to be just that, in other words, the second you hear it, you know immediately what the film is. Ergo, The Third Man. Other greats for me would be The Magnificent Seven by Elmer Bernstein and The Big Country by Herrmann's school friend, Jerome Moross. Also, not so much a melody, but easily recognizable to me at least throughout the film would be the music to Predator.@dpcon said:
I consider the theme in Patton not only the greatest American patriotic tune in a film but one of the great tunes in the country's history. I mean Sousa would have flipped for it.
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All great choices here. I'm currently writing a pastiche of Jurassic Park's main theme for an assignment (academic not work) and JW's melodies are really quite something.
Two quick questions: -
Anyone know what the temp score track was for that march at the end of Star Wars? I think it was by William Walton but I could be mistaken.
Wasn't Star Trek: First Contact's main theme written by Joel Goldsmith? I know Jerry is credited with the score but Joel's name is given on the soundtrack album for that particular track.
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@bluejay said:
Wasn't Star Trek: First Contact's main theme written by Joel Goldsmith? I know Jerry is credited with the score but Joel's name is given on the soundtrack album for that particular track.
As far as I know, Joel took on the job of doing some of the Borg music, into which the main titles music segues. So, on my copy of the soundtrack album, track 1 is listed as "Main titles/Locutus", with a little dagger after 'Main titles', and an asterisk after 'Locutus'; the dagger means 'Includes theme from 'Star Trek' by Alexander Courage', and asterisk means 'composed by Joel Goldsmith'. I interpret this to mean only 'Locutus' was Joel's work, and this is consistent with the asterisking of the other Borg tracks on the album.
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No question John Williams has written some great themes. Even so I don't know if he would be called a great melodist in the traditional sense. Schindler is indeed a wonderful heart rending melody but if you think about he doesn't have a lot of those. It's not a knock cause the man is just great. I think he's a great thematic writer is my point. The same could be said for many film composers. Korngold and North are great melodists I would say. Raksin's Laura is certainly a great melody and we shouldn't forget Smile which he co-wrote with Charlie Chaplin and is one of the great melodies of all time. Widening the concept of melody to include theme or even melodic movement (which film seems to require more than beautiful tunes) you have Herrmann hitting home runs in every direction whether it's Citizen Kane, Jason and the Argonauts, Day The Earth Stood Still, Psycho or Taxi Driver. All these and so many other's have tunes you can hang your hat on in the sense that they are memorable and seemlessly a part of the picture. Good call on Bernstein's Magnificent Seven Paul which has entered the American lexicon of great home grown melodies and is in fact far more popular than the Goldsmith Patton tune I cited here.
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The thing about themes like The Big Country and Mag7 is that the melodies or themes are actually quite easy - easy in the sense you still have to write them. But they are not complicated which makes them easy to remember. It's the stuff going on underneath that's the brilliant bit. The rhythmical elements and other embellishments are the key to writing good melodies............................ Another memorable theme to a film, at least over here, would be Get Carter by Roy Budd. The instrumentation is basically piano, harpsichord, electric piano, bass and drums. But everyone knows it.
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Those are great suggestions. Maybe I wrote this thread to be reminded of those themes - Patton and Magnificent Seven I completely agree with. Paul notes the underlying things going on in them, and both have rhythmic contrapuntal figures that frame another melody. Patton starts off as a little sturdy woodwind march, and then the noble brass countermelody comes in almost like Bach. Magnificent Seven may be the greatest film melody ever composed. It has such a huge sweeping quality and the contrast built into it is perfection. Elmer Bernstein is definitely one of the great melodists. There is no way to cobble together a tune like that. It is real inspiration. Laura is another great one. A long melody with rather complex harmony. It captures the mood so well there is almost no other music in the movie!
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I asked my wife about this instantly recognizable film title melody this evening and she immediately came up with North by North West. I said yes - but for God's sake, you can't sing it. She said no, but she could hear in her head. I gave up. Naturally, one of the most instantly recognizable film titles anytime is of course The Pink Panther by Henry Mancini. The first bar - and it's instant. What is great about that piece is the way it's orchestrated. It is such a distinctive sound - Fantastic! The Odd Couple is another - which for some crazy reason I always thought was by Mancini. Keeping the British flag flying I always thought You Only Live Twice by John Barry and surprisingly brilliantly sung by Nancy Sinatra was a great one. The strings in that are tremendously good and sooooo 60's romantic. Other greats and instantly known would naturally include The Good, the Bad and the Ugly by Ennio Morricone.
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Personally I think that the Darth Vader theme by John Williams is one of the best character themes. What is amazing is that everyone can hum it, yet it is actually quite chromatic. It has a simple rhythm, and so sounds simple. Somehow John Williams turned a chromatic scale into such a hummable melody to go with the rhythm.
Another great John Williams theme would be Across the Stars from episode 2 of the prequels. No matter what you think of the movie, that is one great melody.
By the way, William, I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but the march you refer to in the end of the first Star Wars (commonly called the 'Force Theme' among John Williams fans) is actually probably the most used theme in all of Star Wars. You might be surprised to find out how much it underscores. Even in the prequels, which do not reprise all the themes at all, it is there very strongly. On every episode it has a very strong position.
Now, so that I don't appear to be too much of a John Williams fan (which I am not) or a Star Wars fan (which I am not) or a Star Wars music fan (which I might be), I will give my non-Star Wars theme: Gods and Generals theme by John Frizzell. It is really not complicated orchestrally or compositionally (I don't think), yet it perfectly sums up the feeling of the movie (or perhaps how the movie should have been). Even if you didn't like Gods and Generals, it is very worth getting the soundtrack, if only for that track.
Colin Thomson
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Colin, yes, John Williams used the theme of the Jedi as a leitmotif throughout all those scores. However I meant that it finds its fullest expression as a real piece of music and a complete little march melody in that "awards ceremony" or whatever at the end of the first movie.
Mancini - of course Paul! Great suggestion.
I notice how often John Barry comes up when melodies are mentioned. Though he can't match John Williams for pure "efficiency" at film scoring (can anyone?) nevertheless I tend to agree with Dave that Williams does not quite match Goldsmith or John Barry in the invention of melodies. Though they are all great composers, of course. It is more that Williams has a focus on overall, "symphonic" scoring, which favors motival construction, whereas Barry uses long, highly developed melodies. Though Goldsmith could do either. Come to think of it, Goldsmith could do anything. He seems limitless as a composer, though he worked strictly in film music.
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@dpcon said:
No question John Williams has written some great themes. Even so I don't know if he would be called a great melodist in the traditional sense. Schindler is indeed a wonderful heart rending melody but if you think about he doesn't have a lot of those. It's not a knock cause the man is just great. I think he's a great thematic writer is my point.i agree. although i approach music from much more of an emotional perspective rather than traditional "classical" sense. Therefore, i am much more drawn into those thematic soundtracks, especially ones of a heart rending nature. Sure, anything from Star Wars may be written with much more intricacy and fascinating depth than the simpler ones... but like i said, i'll take feeling over fanciness anyday.
Personally, i think the soundtrack to Artificial Intelligence is just flat out amazing. (well, most of it). There's a definite theme that runs throughout it which, for me, finds a perfect balance between classical beauty and modern composition. It is very delicate and melodic in places, yet still manages to get that grandiose drive in the right places. But overall i love the simple piano theme ("The Reunion," "Where dreams are Born," etc.)
Im just a sucker for the heart-tugging stuff.
and on a completely unrelated, non-orchestral note, the soundtrack to 21 Grams also fits this "theme" theme.... beautiful pieces reprised throughout the film. Although this one is very modern and sparse... but hey... i like what i like.
>michael
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These are very interesting posts on this topic. So I would state that, no matter what specific scores you want to mention, the greatest film melody composers are:
1 John Barry
2 John Williams
3 Erich Korngold
4 Jerry Goldsmith
5 - ?????????
I know the first 4, but after that it gets more questionable. Those first 4 guys are probably inarguable though.
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William, why do you rate 'Somewhere in Time' as Barry's best? Having just listened to it again, I'd rate his '007', 'Out of Africa' and 'We have all the time in the world' as better. This isn't a criticism, by the way; I'm interested to find out what you're listening for in his music. Personally, I'm a texture and complexity fiend; I like it when the composer can include interesting countermelodies, cross-rhythms and other stuff going on under a good tune, but getting the balance right between surface and support is critical. I think that's what makes things like 'Magnificent Seven' work so well.
I'm also a sucker for good use of strings, which is why I think every composer ought to be able to explain just what's going on in the opening 40 bars or so of Tchaikovsky's 'Serenade for Strings' -- it's an object lesson in compelling string writing.
Meanwhile, let me throw in 'Let the River Run' from 'Working Girl', which I think is just a fantastic tune; I said to my wife recently, while we listened to it in the car, that if I could write a song half as good, I'd be happy.
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@bluejay said:
Wasn't Star Trek: First Contact's main theme written by Joel Goldsmith? I know Jerry is credited with the score but Joel's name is given on the soundtrack album for that particular track.
As far as I know, Joel took on the job of doing some of the Borg music, into which the main titles music segues. So, on my copy of the soundtrack album, track 1 is listed as "Main titles/Locutus", with a little dagger after 'Main titles', and an asterisk after 'Locutus'; the dagger means 'Includes theme from 'Star Trek' by Alexander Courage', and asterisk means 'composed by Joel Goldsmith'. I interpret this to mean only 'Locutus' was Joel's work, and this is consistent with the asterisking of the other Borg tracks on the album.
Ah, sorry about. I stand corrected.
It is a beautiful melody and I'm listening to it a lot at the moment. In fact I really love the lush production on this, the brass sounds fantastic. This is my current reference track for Altiverb settings.
In terms of melodies I would say that John Williams' Across The Stars is wonderful. Very simple idea but it really works so well. I heard the Royal Philharmonic play this in Leicester Square a couple of years back and it is a very moving piece.
PS. Hmm ... aren't the opening 6 notes of the First Contact melody exactly the same as The BlackAdder theme tune? Maybe only Brits would spot this?