Does anyone ever just leave the stereo width of the various strings sections at 100% and just pan them into position? Or should you always narrow the stereo width of each section? If so, by how much?
Thanks,
Jay
Thanks,
Jay
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Narrowing of stereo field for ensemble strings
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A very good question. I have been experimenting with Altiverb 5 stage positions and at first I thought aha I am on the right track! But after much more critical listening I have decided to not use the stage positions except for perhaps 1 or 2 things such as Glock and Bass Drum because a wide stereo glockenspiel is not real unless you're playing it and leaning over the instrument. Now I do not have the Waves S1 which is probably the best way to narrow a stereo field and keep the sonic character intact but still not sure about that. The best strings sound I have leaves most of the strings very wide just narrow the violas by 20% and the basses by 25%, cellos 15%. The real key is the right amount of reverb and the right hall. Most guys pan the 1st Violins way too far left but this is not real either because their sound fills the entire hall. Most important is to find a recording of strings you love and listen with good headphones and a/b your Vienna strings against that. For me I am using a parametric (with secret curve) on the 1st, 2nd, violas and a slight dip on the cellos upper midrange to warm up the sound and a slight low end basses e.q. boost.. So I conclude; leave the full width of the violins and pan them straight left (halfway) then e.q. and choose verb. Then you've got it.
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@Bruce said:
leave the full width of the violins and pan them straight left (halfway)
If I do this in Logic for example then all that happens is that the right channel gets reduced in volume, as Logic's panner is only a balance control (for stereo tracks). I personally find this can sound quite messy - especially on stacc and pizz strings where you will just have small remains of the right channel panned hard right - even if you "pan" the signal to the left. I definitely prefer to reduce stereo width before panning.
If you did this ProTools, the stereo width gets reduced effectively anyway - the right channel is panned more towards the center.
Solo instruments benefit also hugely from massively reducing stereo width, especially performance legato instruments, they are easier to pin to one location in the stereo field rather than leave them moving around when left at 100% width.
best, Dom
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I've been doing all of my mixing in Digital Performer and I'm not sure at this time of a Logic equivalent of this procedure...
DP has a plugin called Trim which can take all of the L/R data of the stereo image and narrow it down to mono, if you wanted it to. I narrow the string fields down to about 30 degrees in cases where I want the strings evenly spaced. Then, I use the pan settings to place the strings across the "stage"-- 5 sections x 30 degrees = 150 degrees with some extra allowance for the contrabasses.
Other times I fudge on this when I don't want the contrabasses panned so far to the right. Trimming to 45 degrees gives some overlap within the string section where this is desired. The problem I've been having with simple panning has been stated-- losing important L or R sonic data and to some degree, various samples "bouncing around" the mix a little too much where different samples of the same section are not totally identical interms of 180 stereo signal distribution. Not that it's uneven "per se"-- it's actually quite natural sounding on its own for the way certain instrument pitches and resonances come across, but too much violin 1 activity on the right side of the stereo field has been an issue. Altiverb 5 does well with how sounds coming from the left side of the mix interact on the right side of the room.
On projects involving other instruments (such as drums, electric bass, guitar, vocals, piano or electric piano) it's even more important that the stereo field be controlled. Such mixes tend to be cluttered with that "wall of sound" approach. Heavier compression in mastering (ick) further squashes the sound and squeezes the air out of the tracks. Narrowing the stereo field helps focus the sound better and keeps such mixes as tidy as possible. In these cases, the orchestra is often trim-narrowed and then panned within a centered 90 degree spectrum. This leaves the remaining 45 degree extremes L/R for any fancy "wide" panning of dual acoustic guitars or electric pianos, background vocals, or any tap delays (for pop and R&B mixes).
Generally speaking, trimming the pan field really does help (aurally) clarify the seating positions of the different orchestral sections.
As always, there is more than one way to do anything-- and what is *too much* is always relative and a danger.
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I run 4 stereo inputs via Adat into my Logic mixer, v1, v2, vla and celli/basses. All instruments have a 64 (centered) Midi panning value, except for the celli and basses. The 4 groups are panned using the Waves S1 into position and narrowed. You really need to make the stereo image per string instrument rather narrow, otherwise you cannot simulate the strings as "recorded" from a distance.
This is a recent project track: Lost Legion Web Doc 01 underscore
(VSL strings with an occasional GOS and US addition)
Cheers,
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This is a recent project track: Lost Legion Web Doc 01 underscore
(VSL strings with an occasional GOS and US addition)
Cheers,
Wow, sounds great. Although not that much strings to be heard... [[;)]]
What's the brass and percussion libraries?
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Brass is ProjectSam Ensembles, Dan Dean Solo Brass, VSL Opus 1 and ProjectSam solo instruments (in that order of usage). Percussion is ProjectSam TrueStrike, VSL Opus 1 and London Orchestral Percussion.