Uh - I'm no "expert", just a long-time user of both Nuendo and ProTools (and several other systems, too).

Like DG wrote: if you don't have the absolute need for a certain TDM-only plugin or have other, non-musical tasks like heavy post-production in mind, you are better off with an up-to-date native DAW like Nuendo. It's cheaper in every respect except sound, easier and more intuitive to handle, and both the MIDI- and the score-implementation are not just an add-on. Plus: It is easier to make ProTools sound bad due to internal overloads than Nuendo (due to the 32-bit-floating architecture of the latter).

If you plan to bring in external engineers to do the mixing for you, ProTools is still the least common denominator for them. And there still are exceptional third-party plugins like CraneSong's "Phoenix" or the Waves IR360 that are only available for ProTools' TDM-standard.

________________________

.... a P.S. to all of you die-hard ProTools-addicts that are already about to write flaming PMs like the last time I dared to answer a question like that: All of this is just my personal opinion. [6]

________________________

/Dietz

The reason why I was wondering if I should start using protools is because I've been reading that Hans Zimmer and the big guys use protools to mix.
I've been trying to mix properly for a long time now and I am getting close.

Do you guys bounce each midi track into an audio track and then mix? or do you guys mix right away if you were to use gigastudio in rewire, or whatever sampler you guys use?
Also, I have been using Waves' plugins forever now. Is there a set of plugins that is better than Waves?

And also, I have been mixing this track for about a week now. What puzzles me is that, even though the rms power of my track is around -10db, it still does not sound as loud as another track (by Hans Zimmer), whose rms power is around -15db. Shoudn't higher rms power = louder?

Many questions for a short message! [;)]

*******

If your RMS is really -10 dB, you should be _considerably_ louder than a track with -15 dB (almost twice as loud, actually). I think you have a flawed measurement.

*******

Waves can be considered the often quoted "Swiss Army Knife of Audio". Their plugins may be excelled by one or the other highly specialized tool, but over and all, you can't do much wrong by using their stuff. It is always _at least_ "ok", and not seldom simply the standard that has been set. - Give me any recent DAW and access to the most common Waves-products, and I can do any task you ask for [;)] . The only hurdle may be the iLok-based copy-protection, that caused (and still causes) me lots of headache.


*******

When I do mixes that include VSL-instruments I often have them bounced to one individual track each. This way, I tend to stay focused on the audio-aspects, opposed to the possibilities of _still_ changing the arrangement during the mixdown. - OTOH, this is _exactly_ what many composers and producers _love_ to have: The opportunity to keep a track "alive" until the last minute, to be open for sudden ideas or necessary changes.

In the end, it depends on you and the raw technical resources you have at hand: If your CPU and/or disks can handle it, keep the tracks in the sampler for the mixdown; otherwise - bounce them! [;)]

HTH,

@Chemicalseb said:

The reason why I was wondering if I should start using protools is because I've been reading that Hans Zimmer and the big guys use protools to mix.
I've been trying to mix properly for a long time now and I am getting close.

I understand you wanting to improve things, but just using PT won't improve your mixes a jot. I'm afraid that there isn't a magic wand as far as mixing is concerned; if there was, there wouldn't be any professional engineers, as we'd all be doing it ourselves.

Most big studios use PT, simply because they do and that's why the "big guys" use it, as they are using live players recorded at these studios. If they didn't, there would be no reason to change from their sequencer, which certainly isn't PT [:D]

DG

here is an exerpt from one of my tracks and an exeprt from one of zimmer's tracks...i also have included screenshots of the waveforms and rms statistics (in soundforge)

my track:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb/me.mp3
http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb/me.jpg

zimmer's track:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb/zimmer.mp3
http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb/zimmer.jpg

(if those links do not work properly.. go to http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb and click on the appropriate link)

Zimmer's track's waveform doesnt look as loud as mine..and it's rms is lower. Yet his track still sounds a little louder.

I have a theory...i used waves maxbass on my track to give it more sub frequencies...to match closely zimmer's track...however..the bass seems to take the whole rms..maybe that is why my rms is so high, yet my track seems quieter.

If i am right, what else should I use instead of maxbass? or how should I properly use it?

Actually if you incresased bass... The perceived loudness varies for the human eara. Higher tones with the same numerical power are percieved louder than lower ones. So you put all the energy you need in the low frequency area (the long waveforms you can see) and little into the mid and high frequencies. A proper mix should have them all well-balanced, you can see that if you look at both pieces through an spectrum analyzer while playing them.

I'd look into the perceived bass from Zimmer's piece which usually can be ofund above and close below the mud frequencies around 100Hz.

Just my not worthy 2 cents,
PolarBear

You're right, Zimmer's track is louder in those frequencies.
After a while I started gradually removing those frequencies more and more.

I'm going to try to put those frequencies back.

By the way, is there a way to make mono rewire tracks group into stereo tracks like the first 2 rewire tracks in Nuendo? I've been using group channels to handle pairs of mono rewire tracks, but the track count gets pretty high.

Just saw this now Chem.

Your track has an excess of very-low end energy, from 45-55hz and downwards. Take a sine tone and run through your RMS meter, and pitch it from 10Khz all the way down to 35hz (watch your speakers, not too loud!), and you will discover that the lower u go, the more RMS will be displayed. That is a rule of sound that lower frequencies carry more energy, and thus will make ur RMS meter show higher output with a bass-heavy track. Im doing mixing and mastering, and are faced with these worries every day. [[;)]]

Thank a lot for the tip, yet I have already fixed the problem, which was using maxbass, which increased the ultra low frequencies thus increasing hte RMS power without sounding loud, as you said.

I found that using the BBE sonic maximizer helped much more.

Just to correct u, u are reducing the ultralow frequencies by using Maxxbass. [[;)]]

how? I used the Die Bassum preset.... and the RMS power was much higher and the song was still at a low level. The low frequencies (sub area) had to be higher in order to increase the RMS without making the track sound louder.

My reply was maybe a tad simplified. [[;)]]

Maxxbass primary function is to add harmonics, thus making very low frequencies translate well on smaller speakers, but can also be used to add in more of the treated signal than just plain 1:1. In that case yes, you will ofcourse get more RMS in ur mix. But skip Maxxbss, and start working on ur EQing on the tracks themselves - hi-passing some of the bass-heavy tracks to let go of some of that energy that plaques ur mix. Cut everything u dont need is a good rule of thumb.

Maxxbass on the entire mix wont yield the results u are looking for.

I stopped using maxbass and re-equed everything and applied few other processings, here is the last version, which I am extremely satisfied with:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb/Imsoclose%201-01%20processed.mp3

if the link does not work please go to to http://members.lycos.co.uk/chemicalseb and choose the file called Imsoclose 1-01 processed (or which ever looks close to that)

@Chemicalseb said:

The reason why I was wondering if I should start using protools is because I've been reading that Hans Zimmer and the big guys use protools to mix.
I've been trying to mix properly for a long time now and I am getting close.

I understand you wanting to improve things, but just using PT won't improve your mixes a jot. I'm afraid that there isn't a magic wand as far as mixing is concerned; if there was, there wouldn't be any professional engineers, as we'd all be doing it ourselves.

Most big studios use PT, simply because they do and that's why the "big guys" use it, as they are using live players recorded at these studios. If they didn't, there would be no reason to change from their sequencer, which certainly isn't PT [:D]

DG


Just for some balance here...

Most people/studios who use Pro Tools don't just use it because "the big guys use it"...they use it because it's interface is one of the most user friendly on the planet, mainly because it was conceived as an audio product. Most others were sequencers with audio added later, and their 8,000 windows show that unfortunately. Digital Performer can do a million things and has a million windows, mini menus, and commands to prove it. Logic as well.

Certainly it's each to his own, but:

1 The PT Interface is elegantly simple and brutally powerful.

2 The program just works all day...I haven't had a PT crash in over a year now...(MAC OSX TIGER)

3 The Tech Support (in US anyway) is available and very responsive...

4 There are a hundred finesse things you can do in Logic and other sequencers (notation being the one big thing) that you can't in Pro Tools. Personally, if I need to do more than change velocity, quantize, edit, move, slice...etc...then I'll play the part again. Other sequencers don't offer me anything (other than notation) that I miss using Pro Tools only.

5 Pro Tools does not have to be thousands of dollars. I had a huge TDM system and dumped it when the G5s came out. I'm now on 002R and getting wonderful results, with the same interface that the guys spending thousands are looking at. With an Apogee convertor in front and a great mic pre, and SPDIF going in for samples, my music sounds terrific for a minimal cash outlay. It's amazing what I'm doing now that a few years ago would have required me to have a huge system.

6 There is no need to go to Pro Tools over problems you are having with mixing. PT won't help...only experience will do that. From all I have heard about Nuendo, it's a great product.

JMHO

TH

@tom@aerovons.com said:

[...] only experience will do that. [...]

In the end, it all boils down to this.

Many pros prefer nuendo, I have used both and also prefer nuendo.

yeah, I've been trying protools lately and I will never use it, unless in a studio different from my own haha.
It is just a pain in the butt to compose in there,
And my ...life decision.. has become that I will always use Nuendo! haha

It has just been the best DAW I have ever used.