julian, it is not always possible to simplify (in german i would say: nicht alles was hinkt, ist ein vergleich)
opus (1 + 2), first edition and pro edition are in the same formats (giga, exs) - to give you a discount of exactly the figure you haad payed for your first product was easy (although you received new media and kept your original license btw.)

wait - what about opus users who purchased when it was available for a reduced price? completely unfair, we have had to reimburse all other users the diference because the discount was (is) the same, independantly when they purchased opus ... oh, and what about all other first/pro edition summer/holiday/students prices? what about the price reductions for purchasing solo strings if you have pro registered or vice versa?

to look at pricing with such arguments would reduce the whole upgrade system to absurdity.

basically you don't pay for a sample twice because VSL offers VIP prices for regsistered users, but we don't reduce this system to *counting samples* but use (and will and have always used) it to offer fair upgrade paths.

in case we had the option to release a VI for 16 bit samples using the current database (similar to the sidegrade option say giga - kontakt) your arguments would be somehow valid.
in my eyes you should then be charged a certain amount of money to honor the development of the VI though - but this is a theoretical reflexion, since it is nothing what exists ....

re-edited samples, 24 bit resolution, new engine, new mapping, significant discounts - sorry if you don't like it ...

christian

It seems to me that when everyone thinks of the Cube, and the upgrade cost, plus the discounts etc etc, they are not really considering the importance of the development cost and the benefit to us, the customers, of the new Vienna Instruments.

If I calculate the discount that I will get on the Extended Cube, and I see that it may be less than what I already paid so far, I consider the difference to be the price of the amazing new technology and ease of use of the new Instruments.

I don't expect to get all of this new technology for free.

Regards - Colin

To me that's seems fair.
I'm ok to pay that price, new sounds, much more playable, no more problems with repetitions tools, I'm excited to MAKE some music and do LESS programming.
Furthermore it's up to us to buy some specified intruments, no need to buy the whole stuff at once.
Plus you always get a fair discount if you already own some VSL products
"-)

Christian - Let me first say that I'm not trying to be awkward - it's so hard to discuss something of this importance over a medium such as a forum... I think this may be only my 7th or so posting. I've done nothing but praise VSL for the two years I've owned both the First Edition and then the Pro Edition. I appreciate the work that must have gone into the VI edition - I do. I appreciate 24bit samples ( a major upgrade to 16bit) - as well as the tool which eliminates the need for all the programming - I've watched the tutorials - it's incredible. I don't question any of that - not at all. What I do question is a current user having to pay full price just to get in the door - I see the discounts for the extended versions - and they are significant. But paying full price just to own the standard version which is comprised of many if not all the Pro Edition samples (albeit in 24bit) is asking a lot IMHO. I suppose we'll agree to differ on this subject - as I will still purchase the Cube. I'll leave it at that and thank you for all your replies cheers, Simon

24 bit samples were actually promised as part of the pro edition, the delivery mechanism being the logistical stumbling block at the time.

@Martin Bayless said:

24 bit samples were actually promised as part of the pro edition, the delivery mechanism being the logistical stumbling block at the time.

ehhm ... i have to adjust this statement .... the inability of giga to handle 24-bit instruments (not samples! - respectively gigaeditor not beeing able to save them) and the impracticable behaviour (of both major applications)to manage memory with 24-bit samples has been the stumbling ...
christian

not sure what you mean by ehhm or adjustments. there were multiple problems with the delivery of 24 bit samples at the time the pro edition was released ranging from the limitations of host software to fitting everything on dvds or hard disks. what came from it was the clear commitment from herb, and echoed by paul and yourself, that 24 bit samples were included in the pro edition purchases but would be provided to users at a future time when feasible at the cost of the delivery media. your quote as to this in part follows:

"a final decision how to overcome this trouble has not been passed, but be assured, you will end up beeing the owner of a full 24-bit version of the library - can you live with that (somehow cryptic) comment?"

the point is not why this has yet to materialize, but that it hasn't. some users attempting to defend the vip program and present pricing problem are attempting to say that vsl is really not charging twice for the same sample because 24-bit samples are actually additional samples. they are not. they are an unfulfilled contractual obligation.

@cm said:

simon, i have mentioned it already several times, but obviously there are some messages no one wants to hear (or read) ....

the key is: *... When upgrading to a larger edition of our library ...*
the standard collections are not a larger library, the full collection is.

So this is your logic.

Wow, CM.. goodness...

You'll probably come up with a wonderful explanation to the fact that I have pro-edition (360 000 samples - as stated on the VSL site) and yet if I want to acquire the Symphonic Cube standard edition ( 800 000 samples - as stated on the VSL site) I'm not really upgrading to a 'larger edition' of your library so there's no sense in having a VIP price for that.

My maths say that's a difference of 440 000 samples but you'll say it's not really a 'larger edition' because.....

because...

because... umm...

lets see...

Because the pro edition doesn't contain the chamber strings and all the other Horizon collection, which if I had them all would maybe add up to the same number of samples that the standard Cube has. And even though quite a bunch of samples in the VI's are new samples, all in all the collection is no bigger than the full Pro & horizon editions (in terms of total samples)...

It's clear to me that you VSL guys are gonna have to go pretty far to try and make any kind of sense and still fail to do so in the end.
Are you really willing to say anything in defence of your new VIP policy?

Why don't you let go and admit things as they are : You want to force us to the extended editions, and you're ready to take the risk that people won't buy into it as a reaction to you forcing them.
That's what I would call integrity..
Just joking. I don't think you guys are dumb enough to be honest about it in public.

Clearly you don't really want the Standard Cube to be called a larger edition... It doesn't fit well with the plan...

I don't envy your role here on the forum CM. It's understandably hard to be a representative of VSL these days in threads like these and yet you still manage to come up with some kind of an answer.
I certainly don't buy into your arguments, as you can read from my thread but I still sincerly applaud your energy..

It even feels as though you actually believe what you're saying.. [[;)]] .

Charl

800000 samples is the amount of the full version.
The Standard content will be around 200000 samples, comprised from these products:
Pro Edition, Solo strings, Chamber strings, Harps, Epic Horns, Woodwind Ensembles, French Oboe,
and new samples.

Fact is that you would miss around 200000 of samples you already own with the Pro Edition.
That's why the Standard Edition makes really no sense for Pro Edition users, because they have to use their EXS/Giga Pro Edition versions simultaneous with the Vienna Instruments to get access to all their samples.

best
Herb

charl, it is in no way hard to be a representative of VSL, not in these times and not elsewhen ...

it has been initially our mistake to have obviously not explained the difference between standard and extended library clearly enough - especially the fact, that only both together over all collections are the symphonic cube with about 800.000 samples (since not all collections are finally configured an exact number is currently not available) - a basic description can be found here

the same is valid for single collections - best example chamber strings where a final number of samples is already available. comparing this collection (std/ext/full) with the respective horizon product should make the differences visible.
horizon chamber strings: 31.000, VI chamber strings std 21.000, VI chamber strings ext 37.000, VI chamber strings full 58.000 samples.

christian

@cm said:

charl, it is in no way hard to be a representative of VSL, not in these times and not elsewhen ...

it has been initially our mistake to have obviously not explained the difference between standard and extended library clearly enough - especially the fact, that only both together over all collections are the symphonic cube with about 800.000 samples (since not all collections are finally configured an exact number is currently not available) - a basic description can be found here



christian

Hi Christian.

It would appear in the eyes of established VSL fans who have been waiting 2 years for that Everest of Sampling technology - "THE Symphonic Cube" - that only the extended version of the Cube can lay claim to that title. The fact that the Symphonic Cube is promoted in standard form maybe adds to the confusion, when in reality it does not compare favourably with the number of samples/articulations available with the full orchestral package.

The Symphonic Cube is a great brand name and I'm sure a great product - perhaps this nomclature should have been reserved only for the complete package. This perhaps would have made the upgrade path simpler to understand even if not everyone agrees with it.

Regards

Julian

It seems to me VSL had a difficult but obvious choice because they could have kept to the letter of their original agreement and not invested in and developed VI. Their obligation was limited to the original formats of Giga and EXS. So they could have made everyone happy by staying with those formats with their upgrade paths. VI is a choice in favor of their customers because they can now access twice the number of samples on their platforms and make use of all the articulations we either don't or can't use (due to time or memory limitations or even difficulty in using the performance tool with repititions and such.)

They have streamlined and optimized are original investment potential but this was a big time and money investment for them. It may appear unfair or a change in original promises but the promise of a great library that would grow and improve has been very well kept and exceeded.

These things cost money as we all know so we deal with this reality. But we can all enter a new reality in our music making that we wouldn't have if we merely upgraded and didn't pay for the same sample twice. I would rather play twice as many samples per midi channel than not pay for them. Except it's not twice as many it's exponentially beyond.

So I'll pay twice and hear ten times more: creativity wins the day. How often does that happen?

Herb & CM,


Thanx for clarifying the sample figures and removing the '800 000' from the Standard Cube page/column.

It seems to me that the Symphonic Cube Instruments page has been updated/corrected since I checked the number of total samples (Yesterday).

You did change that didn't you?

It's good that it's now not misleading anymore (I could swear there really was a 800 000 samples written down on the standard cube column) and it certainly helps us now to better understand CM's post about the Standard Cube not being considered as a 'Larger Library' by VSL - Which didn't make any sense to me when I checked the facts to see where you were going CM.

So I will very much agree to the fact that 'technically' speaking your initial VIP statement has been respected - if that's how it was initially formulated.
What a shame though that you won't take into account the new samples and give us a VIP upgrade path...

@herb said:

800000 samples is the amount of the full version.

Fact is that you would miss around 200000 of samples you already own with the Pro Edition.
That's why the Standard Edition makes really no sense for Pro Edition users, because they have to use their EXS/Giga Pro Edition versions simultaneous with the Vienna Instruments to get access to all their samples.

best
Herb

Okay I think this is the core issue. Plase let me tell you why I think you're wrong on this.
The standard edition may seem to you like it makes really no sense for pro edition users... But seriously, do you think they'll buy that?
I'll give you three simple reasons that anyone will argue makes the standard edition appealing.

- We're not missing on the 200 000 samples we already own because we already own theme and can use them with exs/giga etc. (the old way).

-We'd benefit from the VI features without having to pay for the extended versions (just like new users)

- I don't think anyone would accept that a solution doesn't make sense because another available one is better (in this case "The full Cube edition")

In a sense you're telling us " The standard Cube is to the full Cube what Opus was to the First-edition. " There was no path to Opus from the first edition (If I recall well) Am I understanding this correctly?

If so. Ultimately what is preventing you from making an adapted VIP path to the Standard Edition? A path that would take into account the VI engine, the redundant samples and the shiping DVD's?

Is it...

- The original phrasing of the VIP path doesn't permit you to do it?
- You've mentionned the distributor thing.. I don't see how this was really blocking you from doing so.. as long as they get their share of the deal.
- The fact you don't want to offer loyal users the possibility to decide not to go for the extended version? Which would actually make sense for some of us.

The latest is the one I find the most disturbing... Fistly because you're not really giving us the choice, and also because you're offering new users an alternative that you're not offering earlier users like me...

In the End Herb, if you really think the Standard Edition doesn't make sense for Pro- Edition users, why don't you give these users a VIP upgrade path that maybe they'll decide they want even though obviously you think they will not buy it?
How about checking if your theory matches reality?


It's good that you guys are saying you're in a confortable position to defend the pricing policy... I still believe it's a courageous mission.
There's an expression in my country called "walking on eggs"...

You know what... I really hope your product is a killer ap and that there will be less ambiguity on the quality of the product than on the true intent of the pricing policy (VIP upgrade on Extended only).

No, I don't think it's for the sake of the existing clients that you're offering the upgrade path that way round Herb.

I believe my impressions are shared by many.

Pointing to details in the original 'VIP policy 'statement may give you good conscience and help you justify what you need to justify but it won't change people's impressions and belief about how you decided to handle the earlier adopters in the process of your business making..

That's it from me.

Good luck anyway !!

charl, you are right - i've removed the 800.000 from the standard column because i had to realize this is again misleading. same with DVDs - the fact that all samples come already on the DVDs if you purchase standard does not mean they are licensed, although you will get a 30-day demo mode to check out if the extended librariy would fit your needs.

@Another User said:

The standard Cube is to the full Cube what Opus was to the First-edition

the statement should read: the standard cube is to the full cube what opus is to the pro edition (opus is the *essentials* of the pro)

therefore there was never an upgrade path from opus to the first or from first to opus, but there was a path from opus to the pro.
in this sense there is now a path from the pro to the SC full (also from opus of course)

the situation from pro to SC standard is now similar: all content of SC std is in SC full, but not all content from pro is in SC standard, therefore the latter is no upgrade path (as an other example: there is no upgrade path from logic 6 pro to logic 7 express)

i have to admit it might make sense for some users to use SC standard beneath the pro as it made for some first edition users to get opus (btw the most difficult case to calculate discounts), but unfortunatele this is nothing we could offer a discount for.

christian

Hi CM

For added clairity I suggest you write (Standard+Extended) below the text which says "Full Library". It could sound like its a third product if people haven't paid enough attention [:)]

@dpcon said:

It seems to me VSL had a difficult but obvious choice because they could have kept to the letter of their original agreement and not invested in and developed VI. Their obligation was limited to the original formats of Giga and EXS. So they could have made everyone happy by staying with those formats with their upgrade paths. VI is a choice in favor of their customers because they can now access twice the number of samples on there platforms and make use of all the articulations we either don't or can't use (due to time or memory limitations or even difficulty in using the performance tool with repititions and such.)

They have streamlined and optimized are original investment potential but this was a big time and money investment for them. It may [i]appear[/i] unfair or a change in original promises but the promise of a great library that would grow and improve has been very well kept and exceeded.

These things cost money as we all know so we deal with this reality. But we can all enter a new reality in our music making that we wouldn't have if we merely upgraded and didn't pay for the same sample twice. I would rather [i]play[/i] twice as many samples per midi channel than not pay for them. Except it's not twice as many it's exponentially beyond.

So I'll pay twice and hear ten times more: creativity wins the day. How often does that happen?

dave, while many of these statements ring true, they are far from universal. many people aren't happy precisely because the opposite of what you have said holds equally true for them. not an elegant solution.

Martin,

I understand and am not putting anyone down who's not happy as being squarely in the wrong or VSL squarely in the right. One could argue that the VSL original agreement has been finessed quite a bit. My point is just that there is cost saving potential (time and quality improvements) and even greater creative potential, so I'm not shocked that it's going to cost me. Someone's has to pay for this new creature and it's going to be us. Could VSL knock a little off more off our bottom line? Maybe that's the core issue I don't know.

I found your post to be reasoned and legitimate and would prefer the outcome you desire but I'm not surprised by business needs of VSL. It seems I'm always paying for things that don't mean a lot to me so at least in this case I will enjoy myself after initial wincing.

I just got off a really enjoyable call with a forum member here. In passing he referred to something I wrote in this thread as being a threat. I didn’t take his comment as being critical at all, but it got me thinking about the wonderful opportunities we have to share ideas across international boundaries. Now our native language is both English but still there was something that didn’t quite translate between what I intended to say and what I said. So I can’t imagine how it might have been interpreted across language barriers as we all work to understand each other. So for the record:

Although I have been critical of VSL and don’t agree with their approach to the SC, I told my friend that I thought the VIs would suit his needs better than the pro edition even where the reverse is true for me. My reference to 24-bit samples as being an unfulfilled contractual obligation was not meant to be a threat in any way. It is a harsh statement because unimpassioned analysis makes it that way: pro edition users have been promised 24-bit samples as a part of their purchase but have not received them. The fact is I don’t want them, and it would be incorrect to read my statement as having any interest in holding VSL responsible legally. Personally, I think VSL has a history of making promises it can’t keep only to find out later why (also a harsh statement). And while there might be a better way to go about this, at no point in time have I ever thought they were unethical. If anything, Herb has made sure that if they blow it, they make it right which to me is a sign of mature ethical thinking. I’m still disturbed that the SC leaves users who can’t or won’t upgrade hanging, but I’d like to think that VSL still recognizes their responsibility to these people and their potential for future VSL income. In the meantime, I’ll probably buy a couple of non-orchestral things like saxophones II and maybe a couple horizon things, and wait to see what they do next. This is a market that kills businesses that sit on their hands and my guess is we haven’t heard the last from VSL. For those who read my comments, please accept that they were meant to be constructive in adding clarity in crisis, and my ironic apology for not being clearer.

Hello all - I started this thread because I believed VSL would at least own up to the "tweaking" of their VIP program promise. In good faith, like many others I thought that my investment was well made. What I have is good - but I have decided upon reflection after further comments from the moderator and owner to not purchase any further products from VSL. No matter how they try and re-word the VIP program - it states that we will never have to pay twice for ANY sample. It's in black and white. I no longer care if it's 24bit - I no longer care about the money VSL spent developing the VI tool. If a company makes a statement - like within 30days you can have your money back - no questions asked - and then says, "well what we actually meant by that was..." then people will no longer buy from them. CM, Herb - you've lost a customer - and if you were politicians, you'd know what that really meant.

There are so many great sample librarys out there, it is simply unreal, but VSL still holds true, after doing alot of listening.