I think strings are very problematic.

I think VSL has done some things so well that using a live player instead might sound *different* but not necessarily *better.* That's how well I feel they done some things like the flutes, legato clarinet, and mp dynamic french horn legatos. Just scary. Staccato bassoons, that kind of thing. Amazing and jawdropping.

Strings have all the same needs, but for whatever reason, they just seem to be a problem for sampling. I think we are much closer with strings than we will EVER be with say, sax, which just seems to refuse to be sampled[;)]

But I find the patchwork approach currently needed to do convincing string phrases exhausting, and at best, pretty good re the results. Not mind blowing. Just good. And that's *at times.*

Also I find, as I'm sure we all have up here, that it depends so much on the song. I've done things with VSL/QLSO that are really impressive sounding. And I've used all the same skill and all the same samples on another song, and it sounded merely OK. Sometimes worse than OK. So it so SONG dependent....PHRASE dependent, DYNAMIC dependent. Strings seem to need so much baby sitting as opposed to just playing a beautiful legato flute line or the like.

I do think VSL is on the right track, and that much could have been solved by what we are now all suggesting up here. No one else has nailed it yet, for whatever reasons. Here's hoping Herb and the gang spend more than 3 days. I'm sure we'd all find a way to pay for truly EPIC STRINGS.

TH

Rob-- I liked the mood of the piece you posted very much. Now back to the topic at hand...

Herb-- perhaps you could do just 1 session test to see if you can capture this sound that everyone is longing for. Maybe just an octave and a half of legato playing. Learn what you can from that session. Get some feedback from your loyal users about the results of that session. And then plan a large and comprehensive series of sessions to get the job done right.

I agree with others that for me this is the single most important set of samples that I still don't have!

Best,
Jay

Herb,

As a neutral here - being that I only own the Horizon titles - can you clear a few details up?

Does this offer only apply to those who already have one of the packages you mentioned, or would it apply to those purchasing say the Performance Set now and then upgrading?

Also, (and without wanting to throw a spanner in the works) if someone can get this offer just by owning the Strings package, how will those feel who only have say the Brass & Woodwinds?

Not trying to be difficult, honest guv!

Colin

PS: My two cents on the string recordings is this. Personally, I always felt that it would have made more sense to record 1st and 2nd violins as seperate libraries so that they could be either broken down to make smaller sections or combined to create a richer sound with more movement. Currently, as soon as the violin section plays two notes they effectively double in size. I obviously don't expect that to happen in 3 sessions though, just a thought for the future.

Otherwise, any of the ideas already posted would be a great bonus.

@JBacal said:

Rob-- I liked the mood of the piece you posted very much. Now back to the topic at hand...

Herb-- perhaps you could do a 1 session test to see if you can capture this sound that everyone is longing for. Maybe just an octave and a half of legato playing. Learn what you can from that session. Get some feedback from your loyal users about the results of that session. And then plan a large and comprehensive series of sessions to get the job done right.

I agree with others that for me this is the single most important set of samples that I still don't have!

Best,
Jay

Thanks Jay. For this section (cue) of the project this worked fine - but reprising this later on I just really needed to step up the 'strings crying' factor (so hopefully the audience crys along with them [:D] . While the Director was pleased with what I gave him (horns and Clar doing this) - I think it could have been so much better with soaring, yet warm, silky triple octave high strings.

I really like the idea of the session - come back to the users for comments. Of course, the challenge is one of proprietary Intel. Not sure how to get a discussion going 'privately' other then - to be a part of the discussion one would have to have at least so many VSL titles (but if I was the competition, I would buy all that was needed, use a bogus name and find out 'how to do it right'. Dang - wish I hadn't of given the idea [8-)]

Seriously - there has to be a way to get us lowly users (in the trenches using this material each and every day) involved in the development.

Just thinking, I personally would support beta testing this out AND THEN paying for it just like everyone else - it means this much to me personally!!!


Rob

@tom@aerovons.com said:

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

That's were I see the real issue is. Even if you record the warmest possible sound with the most expressive vibrato after 10 notes like that your sound will loose its warmth.

What they should do is something similar to the "universal mode" that would allow to vary the expression through vibrato, timbre, dynamics, bowing etc.. but giving it much more flexibility of this instead of us applying them as a brain surgeon. This would work with the software of course, and I'm sure that would make a big difference.

@Guy said:

[quote=tom@aerovons.com]Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

That's were I see the real issue is. Even if you record the warmest possible sound with the most expressive vibrato after 10 notes like that your sound will loose its warmth.

What they should do is something similar to the "universal mode" that would allow to vary the expression through vibrato, timbre, dynamics, bowing etc.. but giving it much more flexibility of this instead of us applying them as a brain surgeon. This would work with the software of course, and I'm sure that would make a big difference.[/

quote]

Absolutely. The algorithms for things like going from legato to staccato are great, but what you suggest is a very needed outgrowth of that very intelligent interpretation. It doesn't matter how good the sampling is if there isn't life within the notes themselves.

TH

[:O]
wow cool IDEA. go for it!add some wild fx too.

Instead of "talking" about warmth and other subjective descriptions, maybe it would be good to put up some snippets (10 secs) of actual "epic string" sounds (from classical recordings preferably) so Herb knows what exactly he has to aim for.

I completely agree with these posts by Jay Bacall and Rob Elliot. I strongly disagree with Tom (even though i earlier agreed with him - ha-ha!)

It is not a simple straightforward thing to record strings right. If it were, why are there so many sample libraries that SUCK?

Not this one, of course, oh no. I have many sample libraries, but one in particular that I bought was a major library, and it cost a lot of money, and it used all the good instruments Tom, and all the good players, and it SUCKS. I have never once used it in any job or piece of music. It has real nice packaging though.

It is an art to record strings for samples, not a simple technique. And the art can get screwed up at any point along the way - and there are hundreds of points.

@William said:

I completely agree with these posts by Jay Bacall and Rob Elliot. I strongly disagree with Tom (even though i earlier agreed with him - ha-ha!)

It is not a simple straightforward thing to record strings right. If it were, why are there so many sample libraries that SUCK?

Not this one, of course, oh no. I have many sample libraries, but one in particular that I bought was a major library, and it cost a lot of money, and it used all the good instruments Tom, and all the good players, and it SUCKS. I have never once used it in any job or piece of music. It has real nice packaging though.

It is an art to record strings for samples, not a simple technique. And the art can get screwed up at any point along the way - and there are hundreds of points.

I assume you haven't done many live string sessions. If you had, and you were working with experienced engineers, you would know it's not a trade secret. It goes on every day, all over the world, for hundreds of artists. It's been done wrong plenty (Denny Jaeger Violins for instance) but not by working engineers who do this stuff every day on commercial recordings. If it were that much of a mystery every string session would take weeks to record[[;)]]

Also, be advised that many of these sample libraries claiming to use "top players" are really not. It costs a fortune to have players sit there for hours. They can't afford the players you are hearing on John Williams soundtracks. So the players are often a problem themselves.

And often, I've heard sample libraries with good basic string sounds, but they begin sounding badly when you try to PERFORM A PASSAGE with them. VSL has been the first to make that really doable with their legato mode. So often you find a library, hit a note or two, it sounds good, then you go to play a phrase, and it becomes a synth part in no time[[;)]]

Getting the sound in a good studio IS as simple as having enough players, which most libraries don't, enough GOOD players, which most libraries don't, and not putting the mic a foot from a player and expecting it sound "sweeping" and "romantic."

It will take much more to turn that into playable samples, as we've been discussing, but if anyone could do it, VSL could.

TH

Don't assume what I have done or what I know.

I am tired of this arrogant attitude. Did I insult you? then why do you insult me?

I am sick of this shit.

I like Tom's ideas here and would like to add something to it.

There is this somewhat 'imponderable' quality that you get with live Violins (violas, cellos too) in a Concert Hall setting and I think that it is what people are looking for. It's not a heavy, thick vibrato but it's something lush , I call it: SILKY.

You can get it with 14 violins and its better with 24. But it is NOT THICK. IT IS SILKY SMOOTH and it's mainly a function of distance plus acoustics plus AIR. Somehow the resin 'excites' the String to RESONATE THE AIR to create this silky quality. It is very rich in higher harmonics that we can't hear but feel.

IT IS MYSTICAL AND BEAUTIFUL.

It is like looking at the Moon to sense the light of the Sun. Or applying reverb to a sampled piano to recreate the resonance of an open pedal sustain. The harmonics are missing. Certainly a creative challenge to reproduce.

Lets leave the Heavy Vibrato and intimacy to the Chamber Strings. I think we are looking for that imponderable mystical sound. The net effect of which will be 'EPIC'.

Just want to echo the general sentiment here and vote for that "mp-mf, silky, warm, romantic, legato, round, expressive, real string sound."

As someone who has done a lot of live string work, I can tell you it is the one orchestral quality I have not been able to successfully replace. And almost every score calls for it somewhere.

One more thought: this should be made available to Pro Edition users (for a fee if necessary) even if they don't upgrade to VI. It is a missing componant of a "pro" library, and should not be considered solely an upgrade perk.

DN

@tom@aerovons.com said:

So often you find a library, hit a note or two, it sounds good, then you go to play a phrase, and it becomes a synth part in no time[[;)]]

It's getting a habit of me quoting Tom, but what can I say? This is why, even though I'm side tracking a bit, come back to my idea of experimenting with this at some point.

In the Universal Mode you could vary the articulation between Legato, détaché, Stac. and Spic. and this is done live! I heard it and it sounds very realistic and it was done in no time. So instead of having articulations we could have different types of vibratos for example, some longer than others, some with heavy syrup etc. If the software can't recognize live it could recognize it on playback. At least you would have a natural vibrato that you wouldn't recognize on the 4th note! This doesn't have to end with "vibrato", that is just one example. But it's just an idea for what it's worth and Herb will probably tell me to not quit my day job! [[[;)]]]

@William said:

I have many sample libraries, but one in particular that I bought was a major library, and it cost a lot of money, and it used all the good instruments Tom, and all the good players, and it SUCKS. I have never once used it in any job or piece of music. It has real nice packaging though.

I have a nicely packaged string library that sucks too. It cost well over a thousand dollars out the door and I ended up using the tremelo violins and pizz basses.

And all you folks thought the Vienna Instruments were expensive. [H]

DC

@ariacat said:

Just want to echo the general sentiment here and vote for that "mp-mf, silky, warm, romantic, legato, round, expressive, real string sound."
DN

Exactly right -- and mp-mf is perfect.

@cwillsher said:

PS: My two cents on the string recordings is this. Personally, I always felt that it would have made more sense to record 1st and 2nd violins as seperate libraries so that they could be either broken down to make smaller sections or combined to create a richer sound with more movement. Currently, as soon as the violin section plays two notes they effectively double in size. I obviously don't expect that to happen in 3 sessions though, just a thought for the future.

Otherwise, any of the ideas already posted would be a great bonus.

Colin, you can already do that up to a point by using Chamber Strings for divisi and Full Vln sections for tutti.

DG

@cwillsher said:

PS: My two cents on the string recordings is this. Personally, I always felt that it would have made more sense to record 1st and 2nd violins as seperate libraries so that they could be either broken down to make smaller sections or combined to create a richer sound with more movement. Currently, as soon as the violin section plays two notes they effectively double in size. I obviously don't expect that to happen in 3 sessions though, just a thought for the future.

Otherwise, any of the ideas already posted would be a great bonus.

Colin, you can already do that up to a point by using Chamber Strings for divisi and Full Vln sections for tutti.

DG

To a degree DG. But because you would be using exactly the same samples for both 1sts & 2nds, you would lose the individual vibrato and movement, and hence the warmth we're all striving for.

Colin

PS - I'm almost off topic here anyway, as this ain't gonna happen in the 3 available sessions and would probably necessitate re-doing all of the string samples again - Twice! [*-)]

I agree that vibrato is probably the biggest issue here and we'll need control over it. I think live players will use more vibrato in specific sections of a phrase (often the middle), which makes it impssible to sample as every phrase is different.

A performance instrument with 2 layers could work. One with medium vibrato and one with full vibrato and we mod-wheel crossfade between the two.

I've just done a mock-up of this with the Chamber Strings sus and sV patches and it seems to work ok, though the sV (espressivo) is probably not the vibrato we're after for this - we'd want a slower, sweeter vibrato.

Otherwise I will also vote for 22 players and mp-mf.

Also, a small portamento would work well for all of it.

First of all, I get a bit worried when I hear people staring to "rule out" some things, such as certain dynamics or types of vibrato etc. In my view this product would be far too important to become limited in any way if it's not absolutely necessary.

For example, if FF or a very heavy vibrato is needed, why should one not be able to achieve this? Seems to me this is one of the (if not the) major points of the VI flexibility and controllability - to be able to achieve pretty much whatever sound you like.

Just look at what is problematic to achieve with the current VSL Violins, and you will pretty much know what most of us seem to hope for in the Epic ones. I don't think one thing has to rule out another...you can have a warm bottom and yet have silky air, you can have vibrato and yet be light and you can have mp, mf and ff alike...and with the new VI concept this flexibility betwen many alternatives is possible perhaps more than ever.

On the subject of sections, I must confess that I also find the 1st and 2nd Violin concept tempting. With the original VSL Violins, one can always invest in the Chamber Strings for smaller section sounds (divisi etc) if one thinks it's important. However, no such option would exist if the Epic Violins are made as one single large section as I doubt that the Chamber Strings would fit this task.

Like many pointed out already, the Epic Violins would arguably for many be one of the most important VSL instrument releases in a long time (with the exception of the VI concept of course), but I also believe Herb and the team realises this...or else he would not have asked us our opinions in this manner. This is of course a fantastic opportunity for all to give their views, and I'm sure it's immensly appreciated by all that Herb takes his time to listen to us.

IMO, if the Epic Violins turn out well, then there is no limit for the potential. Follow-up products like Epic Violas, Epic Cellos, Epic Basses and in the end perhaps even a complete Epic Strings package containing the lot could prove to be extremely popular, since people would probably after having Epic Violins feel the need to upgrade the rest of their string sections to the "Epic sound".

Again, at risk of being completely out of line in suggesting this, an idea occured to me:

After all the talk about "Epic" and comparisons to the Epic Horn instrument, how about bringing in the same person VSL used on Epic Horns to consult on the Epic Violins...namely Thomas J?

I don't know about the others here, but I for one was extremely happy with the way the Epic Horns turned out and I would have full confidence in Thomas and his views what an Epic Violins library should sound like.

I'm not saying I don't have full confidence for Herb and the VSL team as well, it just seems to me that they brought Thomas in for assisting on an Epic library once before and the result (at least IMO) was excellent. It also seems to me that what most of us wish for in the Epic Violins is something that is "right up Thomas' alley" so to speak.

Sorry, if I'm completely out of line with this, but I'm just toying with the thought that's all.

R