Well who'd bother buying an expensive sample library to exactly imitate real players if they could just take their music to a real orchestra!

Or are you saying that everyone here except me can read and write score at a professioanl level!

Hetoreyn,
Just to clear something up. There are many here who can read and write yes. But there are also pro's who can't, although they're a little thinner on the ground.
And it's important to remember that even if we can read and write, unless we're in an orchestra or already 'popular', it's unlikely we'll hear our stuff played live, as most orchestral administrators these days tend to stick to the old favourites, and/or play film music excerpts. So pros who write are just as likely to use a sample library as those who don't, so they can hear what they've written. IMO sample libraries have released a lot of 'trained pros' from the frustration of never hearing their work played live. And in reality there is an irony in this. When you write and perform with a sample library and get it out to the public with resulting sales, the orchestral beaurocrats are more likely to play your stuff, particularly if it becomes popular, so the circle is reversed.
And being able to play your own work the way you want to hear it provides a release from the restriction of being at the whim of others. (Generally non playing administrators. Hrumph!)

Regards,

Alex.

Fair enough, point taken [[;)]]

@hetoreyn said:

Well who'd bother buying an expensive sample library to exactly imitate real players if they could just take their music to a real orchestra!

Most people who hire me can't read a score, so I need to give them a reasonable demo of what the final sound is going to be. As for the library being expensive, it is probably the cheapest part of the "tools of my trade" [[:|]]

DG

@hetoreyn said:

Wonderful ... yet something else I can't enter ... seems somewhat mean to post this kind of competition on a 'SAMPLE LIBRARY!' based forum site. I know there's a few who can write real score but most of us are here because we can't! [:'(]

I'd like to see a VSL competition, since we could all enter that one.

Hetoreyn, I merely posted the contest notice here because it seemed to be the highest concentration of motivated orchestral composers I could find in one spot!

If you'd like to enter the competion with no written score and JUST a midi realization, that would be acceptable, too. Just indicate that your MIDI file IS the score and there will be no semantic splitting of hairs, nor any detriment in judging your entry.

- Paul H. Smith
http://www.fauxharmonic.com

Okay, I think I'd like to submit someething. But in the instrumentation what does 3333, 4331 indicate. Is there a brass section?

It's all new to me!

Tah

(PS, I apologise for my prickly post .... I really must avoid the message boards first thing in the morning [:O]ops: )

3 Flutes (incl. piccolo)
3 Oboes (incl. Eng. Horn)
3 Clarinets (Incl. Bass Clarinet)
3 Bassoons (Incl. Contrabassoon)

4 Horns
3 Trumpets
3 Trombones
1 Tuba

Are there restrictions to the complexity of the piece? Or the complexity in regards to individual parts (seeing you outruled soloists of any kind)?

Thanks for mentioning it here!
PolarBear

No restrictions on complexity. No soloists means, well, imagine a situation where you have a person standing in front of the orchestra (or sitting, as in the case of Yo Yo Ma) versus a situation where someone already in the orchestra plays a solo. The latter would be fine for this contest, but the former, concerto-like setting would not be accepted.

- Paul

Hello:

Hetoreyn: Like several others on these forums, I am a professional composer/orchestrator/arranger who has the good fortune of having a great deal of my music played by high quality orchestras or bands and even getting some of it recorded. Even so, I have purchased the VSL Pro and other libraries and a system to use them as have many serious musicians of whom I'm aware. You might be surprised at how many professionals welcome these products and use them extensively. I think it is a mistake to think that only people who don't read music will use the VSL and other such tools. Certainly they are a wonderful aid to people who have the music inside them yet haven't had the opportunity or desire to study traditionally. However, they are also extremely useful for professionals or those who have the traditional writing skills but no access to an orchestra. Even for professionals, usually the only music you get to hear played by a good orchestra is that which is commissioned for some specific reason. If you are writing art music, your great symphonic masterpiece [:D] or something you dreamed the other night, you are not likely to hear it and certainly not likely to get it recorded. Also, as hemitage mentioned, there is no better sales tool than these libraries. Non-musicians simply cannot get the idea from your score.

Paul: Thanks for posting the contest info. You are likely correct about this being at least one place with a high concentration of composers all together. I hope I can submit something for it.

Poppa

Very succinct and clear.

I point I would add is that unlike Herr Beethoven, I certainly cannot hear the music in my head and so am in desperate needs of good quality libraries to help me calibrate when I am writing original stuff. It's pretty hard even to get amateur orchestras to try things out, so you do tend to be confined to hearing real stuff for commissions only.

Having said that, I am thinking about a trip to Eastern Europe to hire an orchestra for a recording session. There are snippets on the forum on this. Anyone had good experiences?

As for the fauxharmonic orchestra - it's a fantastic name. Now let me see if I can put something together!

@Another User said:

I certainly cannot hear the music in my head

I have a 'reverse' problem: I hear lots of things in my head but can't get t out fast enough (making me loose most of it). And to my dissapointment, I can't exactly pinpoint what notes I'm hearing, so when I do remember phrases, pieces or whatever, I waiste time (and consequently loose idea's) trying to figure out what notes it all were.

The contest looks appealing.
I would like to have some clarification though, about those numbers for a standard orchestra. I saw them on the site: 3333 and 4331. Does this apply to the strings? What does it mean? [*-)]:
Thanks!

Well, thank you! I overlooked your earlier post.

@Another User said:

I certainly cannot hear the music in my head

I have a 'reverse' problem: I hear lots of things in my head but can't get t out fast enough (making me loose most of it). And to my dissapointment, I can't exactly pinpoint what notes I'm hearing, so when I do remember phrases, pieces or whatever, I waiste time (and consequently loose idea's) trying to figure out what notes it all were.

wellsdeckers:

As I see it, you describe two problems.

1. Remembering what you hear for some length of time.

2. Getting what you hear out of your head and into the world.

I also used to have this problem. All of my life I have heard massive amounts of music in my head 24 hours a day (since age 6) but I couldn't get it on to paper ( I am old so it was paper then). Always, it would be not quite right or sometimes not even close to right.

Consider this: When you speak with someone or read a book or article, it's fairly easy to remember the main ideas there because you understand what you saw or heard. If an average person sees an interesting building or a computer program or a football game s/he can only remember so much but well trained professionals can remember many details because they understand what they are seeing. It's the same with music.

This is the key and finding it changed my life! I was fortunate to get the opportunity for some very demanding musical training. It did not interfere with my creativity or confine my talents, it did not force me into directions I didn't want to go. It gave me freedom to express what was in my head because I began to understand it, to break it down and I eventually reached the point where I could just write down what I was hearing. Now, I can honestly say I'm almost never surprised when I hear the live version of what I have written. It is exactly what I heard in my head. The sound in my head is so clear that it's like a live band or orchestra is playing right in front of me. I can pick out the individual instruments, the notes and phrases, everything. This is one of the reasons it took me so long to get into computers and music. I didn't need to to hear what the music sounded like and the quality has only recently reached the level that it is becoming comparable to live music. It's not there yet but it's getting very good.

If you have the option of getting to a good school or a private teacher I strongly recommend that you take it. For people who can already hear music it is vitally important. At the very minimum you need the following:

1. Ear Training - This may be the most important thing of all for you. In my opinion you should make this the number 1 priority in your development. Not everyone is lucky enough to hear music in their heads. Because you can, you must train yourself to understand what you are hearing.

2. Orchestration/Arranging - Many people would put Harmony before this and they are probably correct but, for me, Orchestration and Ear Training are the true keys for people who really hear the music already.

3. Harmony and Advanced Harmony - The better you understand the components of music the easier it will be for you to remember and to translate what you are hearing.

4. Composition - This is the skill and technique of taking what you hear and crafting into a piece that realizes all the potential in your ideas.

There's much more, of course, and other people will have their own ideas but, IMO, these are the most essential basics for the issue you described.

Of course, I don't know anything about your life so I don't know what is possible for you, what styles of music you are into or what you believe. But I am speaking from my own experience. If you can get the proper training and commit yourself to it, I truly believe it will change your musical life. It will show you how to take the gift you have inside and and bring it out into the world. Good luck!

Sorry for such a long post but I felt very strongly about what you said.

Be well,

Poppa

Well Poppa, thanks for your suggestions.
I will definately start with 'ear training' (just before the summer I had a very short period where I did succeed a little bit in getting ideas notated as I was hearing them, until my work consumed me).
As a matter of fact, I'm strongly thinking about a 'carreer-change' since my a/v-editing work is taking too much of my painting and composing time, both of which are my true passions.
But making a living has #1 priority so its not gonna be a fast nor easy process.

But I'll start training my hearing... any exercises to be found on CD or something??

Thanks again for your suggestions. [H]

@weslldeckers said:

Well Poppa, thanks for your suggestions.
I will definately start with 'ear training' (just before the summer I had a very short period where I did succeed a little bit in getting ideas notated as I was hearing them, until my work consumed me).
As a matter of fact, I'm strongly thinking about a 'carreer-change' since my a/v-editing work is taking too much of my painting and composing time, both of which are my true passions.
But making a living has #1 priority so its not gonna be a fast nor easy process.

But I'll start training my hearing... any exercises to be found on CD or something??

Thanks again for your suggestions. [H]

weslldeckers:

There are actually quite a few Ear Training CD-DVD courses. Here are a few you can look into:

http://www.ars-nova.com/products.html

http://www.risingsoftware.com/auralia30/

http://www.uh.edu/~tkoozin/musicet/

http://www.perfectpitch.com/ (On this one you want the Relative Pitch course, which is excellent!)

The key is to do a bit every day. Even 15 - 30 minutes a day is enough to get your inner (and outer) ear going.

Hope this helps.

Be Well,

Poppa

poppajol - i think your post is incredibly insightful. i'm not sure i agree verbatim, specifically in prioritization of orchestration and harmony, but that would be so inconsequential in what you've said it almost doesn’t bear mentioning except in just adding very little bit of dimension.

our experiences seem similar and what has brought me out of classical music is ironically what brought me into it. that is the blending of contemporary sound palettes with traditional instruments. for me the musical challenge is not identifying traditional structures, but new ones where the definition of music might be simply, "the ordering of audible events in time." everything seems a continuum to me with stockhausen and mozart contributing equal parts; heresy, I know. music no longer seems dissonant or consonant - just shaded in a way that transcends twelve notes yet still recognizing the need for tension and release.

to my knowledge nobody has done anything beyond scratching the surface when it comes to organizing what is sonically possible with synths and samplers and that translates to my mind as well because i don't (and don't want to) hear in just traditionally-orchestral structures. so being the product of what might be the deconstructionist era of music, i constantly find myself wondering how to put humpty dumpty back together again. i know i'm not alone and it would be interesting to hear how others wrestle with realizing the unquantifiable.

Martin:

I think you bring up some fascinating points. I know this thread is about the composition competition but I will take the position that we are discussing composition until a moderator tells us differently.

Regarding the ordering of Harmony vs Orchestration, in most cases it would be more appropriate in the opposite order from what I suggested. For wellsdeckers, my thought, which is entirely open to discussion, was that for his specific issue, it is most important that he really internalize all the sounds of the instruments, their various combinations and individual capabilities. I feel that this is something he should start on right away so that he can learn to understand what he is hearing in his head.

Regarding the rest of your post: I think you have identified the most challenging aspect of life for the modern composer. We have access to a virtually unlimited sonic pallete and the exploration of using that in a musical way is just beginning. Consonance, dissonance, scale, pitch, formal structure, etc. are all fluid concepts at present and nothing is sacred or heretical.

I love your definition of music as "the ordering of audible events in time." That is wonderful and, with your permission, I will certainly steal it and use it in the future.

Clearly, these ideas have been under intense scrutiny for many years now. I doubt that there are any clear "answers" nor should there be. That is the reason I use Mr. Persichetti's quote as my musical motto.

Thanks for you comments.

Be well,

Poppa