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  4. Film and TV formats.

  • Film and TV formats.

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    As a complete novice in Film and TV, i've often wondered just how you visual wizards put music to film. I've had a little experience putting music to ads many years ago, but what's the modern way of doing this?
    PaulR gave me some info (thank you Spartacus) and said video is the general format for TV. So what happens from there? What sort of computer program do you use to add music to film or tv? Do films only come in video or are there other formats? Do you import audio files, or add as you go? How does this work?

    Any input would be appreciated.

    Regards,

    The previously symphonic only Alex.
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    @hermitage59 said:

    As a complete novice in Film and TV, i've often wondered just how you visual wizards put music to film. I've had a little experience putting music to ads many years ago, but what's the modern way of doing this?
    PaulR gave me some info (thank you Spartacus) and said video is the general format for TV. So what happens from there? What sort of computer program do you use to add music to film or tv? Do films only come in video or are there other formats? Do you import audio files, or add as you go? How does this work?

    Any input would be appreciated.

    Regards,

    The previously symphonic only Alex.


    Ummmmmmmmmm, video is the format for old people, I'm afraid. These days the young whippersnappers get digital files to load straight into their sequencer.

    Various sequencers are used, the main being Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, Digital Performer, Sonar and SlowTools.

    There are many ways of working, but normally a composer would spot the film with the director and then come up with demo cues to fit. Then these are either tidied up and mixed, or orchestrated properly and then recorded and mixed.

    DG
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    Good thing i asked then.
    I understood you can use video in Cubase and Nuendo, but i had no idea you could put a video digital file in logic, and then add soundtrack, looking at both music tracks and pictures.

    Thanks for the info DG.

    Regards,

    Alex.
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    I'm not sure where DG gets his information from regarding this,but I work regularly for BBC's 1 & 2,Channel's 4&5,Discovery,National Geographic,blah,blah,and have only ever been given VHS to work to.Maybe they think I'm too old to take in this new fangled digital stuff.
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    Thanks for the info Straw.
    So how do you synce audio to VHS? I remember many years ago using a reel to reel, (like a big naked cassette player to the younger forum members) with timecode sync. So how do you sync video with a sequencer? Special player? I'm showing my ignorance here i know.

    Regards,

    Alex.
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    @DG said:

    Ummmmmmmmmm, video is the format for old people, I'm afraid. These days the young whippersnappers get digital files to load straight into their sequencer.
    DG


    What - you mean avi format?
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    @strawinsky said:

    I'm not sure where DG gets his information from regarding this,but I work regularly for BBC's 1 & 2,Channel's 4&5,Discovery,National Geographic,blah,blah,and have only ever been given VHS to work to.Maybe they think I'm too old to take in this new fangled digital stuff.


    It could be because:

    a) You're old
    b) They know that you want a VHS

    FWIW I know a lot of people who do get given VHS by old fashioned editors but immediately convert them to digital format. I also have never seen a commercial delivered on a VHS (well not for a number of years). I was only trying to point out that VHS delivery is likely to disappear in the near future as digital files are so much easier (and quicker) to work with.

    DG
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    @DG said:

    Ummmmmmmmmm, video is the format for old people, I'm afraid. These days the young whippersnappers get digital files to load straight into their sequencer.
    DG


    What - you mean avi format?

    Mostly Avi or Quicktime

    DG
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    @hermitage59 said:

    Thanks for the info Straw.
    So how do you synce audio to VHS? I remember many years ago using a reel to reel, (like a big naked cassette player to the younger forum members) with timecode sync. So how do you sync video with a sequencer? Special player? I'm showing my ignorance here i know.

    Regards,

    Alex.


    You have two audio channels on a VHS (I'm ignoring the monaural). One of them has dialogue etc. and the other has MIDI timecode (which hopefully is recorded loud enough and is in sync with the burn in timecode). The MIDI TC comes out of the VHS, into the MIDI timepiece (yeah, I used to have a couple of those) and then syncs to the computer (this is all very vague, but you get the drift).

    This sort of means that you have to fast forward and rewind the video in order to play the correct place. You also have to give it time to "lock", before the sequencer will start. With Avi or QT you can type in the TC number in the transport bar and then you are immediately in the correct place and you don't need any lockup time as you're always is sync.

    DG
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    I am still most often supplied with VHS rough/fine cuts to work to but, as DG says, I will immediately convert this material to Quicktime format via a video capture device so that I can work accurately (and very easily) with it in my sequencer - if you're not familiar, you can step frame by frame through a video sequence in your DAW to spot effects or change tempos to hit marked cue points.

    Sometimes it's not important to hit frame accurate cues, but just to get the right mood or feel for the visuals, in which case I would just cut out the transfer time and write to the picture straight from VHS. Indeed, even this method can be surprisingly accurate with a little rehearsal of when to hit the record button on the sequencer!

    When working for film (which I don't - mainly tv) I believe many still use 'proper' synchronised DigiBeta machines, as the timing of VHS can drift during long sequences. You've also got to be aware that when capturing video to a hard disk from tape, there is potential to have 'dropped frames' in the process, though your software should warn you of this.

    Colin
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    Thanks fellas for all the info. I'm a lot wiser now than this morning.
    I'm in the process of learning as much as i can, because a lady i know works for Mosfilm as an independent in Moscow, and she's asked me to consider writing to documentary, and film. Everything's loose at the moment, and i think we're trying each other out just to see what the result will be. She likes my music and i'm impressed with her filmwork (she's 25 and a natural), but she's like most independent directors/producers, and can't afford an orchestra. Good thing her dad's rich, and wants his daughter to do well, but being fair, she's driven anyway. He's just bought her a complete mini film studio setup, with mobile equipment as well, so she's definitely serious. And i have time on my side to practise getting it right.
    The amusing part is, it all started from giving her english lessons! Funny how life works out.

    Thanks again to all of you, and with your input, and my faint recollections from the past doing ads, i might be ok.

    Regards,

    Alex.
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    @DG said:


    It could be because:

    a) You're old
    b) They know that you want a VHS

    FWIW I know a lot of people who do get given VHS by old fashioned editors but immediately convert them to digital format. I also have never seen a commercial delivered on a VHS (well not for a number of years). I was only trying to point out that VHS delivery is likely to disappear in the near future as digital files are so much easier (and quicker) to work with.

    DG



    a) I'm not that old,but I that's my business [[;)]]
    b) I DON"T want crappy VHS,but I still get it,and most of the time it's more than satisfactory.One can step frame by frame with VHS,providing one owns a machine that has this feature.

    Editors I've worked for usually use Avid,and are young,as far as I know.They keep using words like: "Cool", and : "Kickin'". I sincerely hope VHS does disappear,sooner than later,but speaking from my own reasonably extensive experience,VHS is still alive and as well as can be expected.
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    @hermitage59 said:

    Thanks for the info Straw.
    So how do you synce audio to VHS? I remember many years ago using a reel to reel, (like a big naked cassette player to the younger forum members) with timecode sync. So how do you sync video with a sequencer? Special player? I'm showing my ignorance here i know.

    Regards,

    Alex.


    The tape comes with two audio tracks[:O]ne containing the dialogue,minus any scratch music,and one with timecode striped the whole length of the tape.A stereo VHS machine is used,taking one audio out to a mixer (to monitor the dialogue and whatever else) and the other goes into some sort of SMPTE read/writer,in my case,one of my Unitor 8's.

    In Logic one can configure the reading of timecode according to one's preference or whatever has been imposed by the programme makers.I always ask for VITC,and it's proved to be very reliable,though one doesn't enjoy the random access benefits of a digital medium.


    Honestly,it's not rocket science,and anyone who pretends it is is doing the old elitist masonic jargon routine. I hope your thang happens. [H]
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    @strawinsky said:


    a) I'm not that old,but I that's my business [[;)]]
    b) I DON"T want crappy VHS,but I still get it,and most of the time it's more than satisfactory.One can step frame by frame with VHS,providing one owns a machine that has this feature.

    Editors I've worked for usually use Avid,and are young,as far as I know.They keep using words like: "Cool", and : "Kickin'". I sincerely hope VHS does disappear,sooner than later,but speaking from my own reasonably extensive experience,VHS is still alive and as well as can be expected.


    Well, I never meant to suggest that you were old; talk about pots and kettles, I could never be so crass (well, hardly ever).

    I'm pleased to hear that you don't want crappy VHS, but sorry to hear that you still get it. Do they give you MTC and does it give you problems. I seem to remember that in the past I had to send tapes back to get them to re-record the timecode. I almost bought a BETA just to cope with this.

    FWIW I worked on a film where I have already done two weeks of work before it was realised that the VHS was running too fast due to the fact that they had transferred 24 frame straight onto video without any frame conversion...!

    I'm also glad that your editors are cool and kickin'. My experience of BBC editors (not as extensive as yours) is that they are diehard Macheads who give a good impression of a deer caught in the headlights when presented with a wav file [:D]

    DG
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    OK - now you have Alex's attention lads - and this will be quite interesting for a lot of members I would suggest.

    Now go on to tell him about spotting and temp tracks.

    [:D] [:P] [:D]
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    @DG said:

    [quote=strawinsky]
    I'm pleased to hear that you don't want crappy VHS, but sorry to hear that you still get it. Do they give you MTC and does it give you problems. I seem to remember that in the past I had to send tapes back to get them to re-record the timecode. I almost bought a BETA just to cope with this.

    FWIW I worked on a film where I have already done two weeks of work before it was realised that the VHS was running too fast due to the fact that they had transferred 24 frame straight onto video without any frame conversion...!

    I'm also glad that your editors are cool and kickin'. My experience of BBC editors (not as extensive as yours) is that they are diehard Macheads who give a good impression of a deer caught in the headlights when presented with a wav file [:D]

    DG


    Hi,DG.The last job I had was almost beyond belief.The first VHS had no timecode at all.The second,not only had no timecode,it had no audio and no picture!The third and fourth also had no timecode.And this was for C4!I tend to work by laying in the full soundtrack as audio into a Logic template for that project,so that I can concentrate on the audio aspect without having to run that damn VHS back and forwards.This is where a digital format of the programme would be useful,and I'm sure it'll be sooner than later to happen.

    I've never had that many problems with VHS and timecode (though I know the tape can stretch):it's usually been something like the signal was layed in at too low a level.

    Regarding formats and computers: my experience has been that they all want WAV 16 BIT 48K files and that they panic when they're given AIF.So,that differs from yourself.A lot of companies work with AVID these days,it seems.It's no problem:I set the file format in Logic's preferences,record everything at 24 BIT/44.1 and do a batch convert in Peak at the end.I'm a diehard Machead,BTW,though I do use a PC for GS/VSL.

    Don't get me on temp tracks Paul,haha! The producer on that Fleming job got hung up on the temp track for the love scenes and I ended up having to do a library music-style soundalike.Grrr.
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    @strawinsky said:

    [quote=DG][quote=strawinsky]
    Don't get me on temp tracks Paul,haha! The producer on that Fleming job got hung up on the temp track for the love scenes and I ended up having to do a library music-style soundalike.Grrr.


    Everyone has a bugbear with temp tracks - it's just normal part of life. That's because you and I both know a lot of directors aren't really that interested in music per se.

    It was fun round the studio during the Fleming job and it turned out really well done. I just panic when I think about moving that studio of yours to another place - hahaah! That brings me out in a cold sweat. [:D]
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    Another reason to "go soft"! To paraphrase Amadeus: "Too many boxes". [[;)]]
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    One of my favourite things about having the video in a digital format (rather than on VHS) is how quick it is to go straight to a certain spot in the film rather than faffing around with fast forwarding and rewinding the tape. Maybe it's just me but after a while I used to find that part of working with tape really frustrating...

    Martin
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    Hmm. Temp scores do raise very strong feelings - and not always just in the composers who are asked to copy them.

    It's a function of the modern studio film-making process that at any time in the edit you have to able to show a complete 'working' version of your movie. So of course it needs music. And because these test screenings are usually 'scored' by either an invited audience, or informally by friends, the quality of the temp score has an important effect on the perception of the film at that stage. You can tell people as often as you like that the music is only temporary, but if music didn't have such a profound effect on our experience of a film, none of us would bother writing it!

    So on a studio pic with anything from 12-30/40+ week edit, depending on the director, there might have been a considerable amount of discussion and experimentation with the temp both in broad brush stroke and detail. Imagine the genuine frustration of the director and editor when the composer refuses to acknowledge this and 'paints over' lots of nuances that the director has come to feel as very important to the film.

    Obviously this is heavily dependent on the relationship between director and composer, but working on both sides of the fence does give you an understanding of the all the 'issues'.

    The smartest composers I know take a very pragmatic view of temp scores, certainly in public, as they are a good starting point to understand what the director is looking for. And then bitch about it in the pub afterwards. "American Beauty again? How original . . ." But understanding the psychology of the transition from temp to final music gives them a framework to build from, rather than feel confined. On a good day.

    Sorry to ramble. There's quite a lot to say . . .

    Cheers

    Michael