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  • Stravinsky's Firebird Finale for Opus 1 -- w/working link!

    Here is a mock-up of Stravinsky's Firebird Finale.

    NEW LINK:

    http://www.vsl.co.at/upload/forum/JB_firebird_finale.mp3

    It uses VSL samples exclusively. Mainly Opus 1 but also Solo Strings and French Oboe. The reverb is Gigapulse. The mix is Sonar 4 PE. Everything was done on 1 PC.

    If anyone wants me to post the midi file, just ask. It's approximately 200 midi tracks (Yikes)!

    I'm most pleased with the expressive violins in the first 2 minutes of the piece. This was done by layering ensemble legato strings with 3 different solo violin articulations (sV_espr, perf-leg & perf-det) per part.


    Best,
    Jay

  • Hi Jay,

    it's impossible to download the complete file here, only the first 30 seconds worked, but I'd love to hear the whole piece.
    Could you email the file, please?
    We could also host it on our server.

    thanks
    Herb

  • Finally the download worked.
    Wow, even on my mini speakers at home it's incredibly impressive!

    Erh, Jay--could we add it to our classic demo section?

    thanks a lot in advance
    Herb

  • Yeah Herb, it is good, isn't it? [[;)]]

  • Thanks Herb and William.

    Herb, as always I'd be thrilled and honored to have it on your site!! [:D]

    Just let me know when the file's on your server, and I'll post the new (and less problematic) link here too so the curious can have a listen.

    Best,
    Jay

  • I've updated the link in the starter posting.

    best
    Herb

  • This sounds wonderfull!! Very alive, wonderfull brass, wonderfull tutti sound. It's a really great mockup. If I were to fault something, I would pull back a little on the reverb, but that's very personal.

    Great work!!

  • Opus and French Oboe and Solo Strings! Wow! That's excellent work Jay!

    One computer too. Very well done to you.

    So, Pro Ed next then and......conquer the worlds.

    [:)]

  • I love it! Very very good work. The brass is especialy good sounding please share your techniques. Very good work! I also love the dynamic range and the dynamic conturing in general. Whats your process for programing the dymanics.

  • Stokowski gave him a little help with the brass dynamics. That was nice of him, wasn't it Jay?

    I also think the espressivo strings sound really good. You layered three different solos with ensemble - did you treat these differently in the mix, with different gigapulse perspectives, or was it the same as the ensemble?

  • Oh my god this was awesome until the end .. it just sucked crap (partially Stravinsky's fault I suppose).

    The piatti are too close, and the crescendo has a noticeable slight volume ramp at the beginning of it.

    Dude, please just fix that end, this whole thing is a marvel of human nature!

    If you were to fix that, I think I would quit my day job!

    Evan Evans

    P.S. Well actually my day job is what pays the bills. So if you did that I'd have to quit composing. [[:|]]

  • Good Job Jay!!!

    This sounds perfect! Excellent balance throughout the mix. How long does a piece like this take you to tweak? I know you said 200 midi files...Sheesh man.

    -Ben

  • Thanks everyone for the encouraging words!

    Ben
    —

    Don’t you hate it when the super talented people whip something brilliant out in an “afternoon.” Well if it makes you feel any better, it didn’t take me an afternoon, or even a few days. On and off, we’re talking probably several weeks, mostly in the wee hours after my wife and 5 year old son are fast asleep. However, a sizeable chunk of that time was setting up a new computer, wrestling with buggy software and digging deep into the vast library of VSL samples.

    Evan—

    You have golden ears! I’m afraid the “too close” piatti are the result of shear laziness. I assigned them to the same instance of Gigapulse as the timpani, which I kept unnaturally dry and up front because I wanted the rather polite Opus 1 timpani to have that extra presence! Any tips about the art of mixing ff timpani would be appreciated.

    The final crescendo problem is the result of two things—

    1) Opus 1 has a limited number of natural crescendo samples (I think you need the Cube for these)

    2) Shear laziness again. I used modwheel crossfade patches and just drew a straight line for the modulation. I know, I know, not the best way to get a natural sounding crescendo, but I was weak by the end! Have pity on me! I do have a question though. Is it better to ramp up faster at the beginning or end of a crescendo like this? In other words, what is the shape of the ideal curve?

    Will I fix these things? Probably, because I’m an obsessive personality, but not right away for 2 reasons—

    1) I can’t live with your unemployment on my conscience.

    2) Stravinsky and I aren’t on speaking terms right now, and we both feel we should spend some time apart, maybe see other composers for a while.

    BUT in month or so, I’m betting we’ll get back together again and armed with the new Epic Horns, I’ll put the finishing touches on this piece (and maybe even add a few Stokowski octave horn rips for William—oh and that big breath before the last note too).

    Magates-- The unglamorous answer to your question about the brass is “trial and error.” I recommend you play in your horn parts and then try all the logical articulations (and combinations of articulations) available to you. See what works and what doesn’t. That said here are a few guidelines.

    1) Don’t quantize the parts too much.

    2) Use different patches for lines that play the same notes.

    3) Try using the ensemble patches even when building up chords. It’s not realistic, but sometimes it just sounds better. (Thanks to William for this tip)

    4) Don’t mix the woodwinds too loud. At first I kept mixing the woodwinds too loud (heck, I’d spent a few days programming their every wonderful nuance!), but this only succeeded in making the whole orchestra sound like one monster organ!

    5) Use lots of expression and volume controllers to breath life into your phrases.

    6) Employ every other trick that I’m forgetting right now or have yet to learn.

    The answer to your question about programming dynamics is this.

    1) Use the modwheel crossfade patches. It should come as no surprise that these are my personal favorite patches. I don’t perform the modwheel live but rather draw the modulation curves in with my mouse in Sonar after I’ve recorded all the parts. It’s tedious. But I’m just not a good enough keyboard player to get the results I want playing it live.

    2) If you want to make something louder, chances are you really should make something else softer instead. I always fall into the trap of pushing everything up, up, up and before I know it, I’m blowing out my levels.

    Continued next post...

  • ...continued from previous post. (apparently there's a length limit)

    PaulR— I’m sure with the Pro Ed one could conquer the world (insert evil laughter here)! But with only one computer (or until Gigastudio raises the 1 GB memory limit), Opus 1 is probably more practical. However, I would love to have access to all the other cool instruments and articulations in Pro Ed and Horizon series but sampled in whole steps instead of chromatically. I think we should all chant Opus 2 until Herb promises us it’s on its way!!!

    Leon-- I just like hearing a lot of space especially with brass. And besides, Gigapulse is like a new toy, it’s hard to put down.

    Thanks again everyone.

    Best,
    Jay

  • last edited
    last edited

    @JBacal said:

    [...] Any tips about the art of mixing ff timpani would be appreciated. [...]


    Compress and distort them. No, leave the Marshall stack in the garage, I mean just a little bit, to add grittiness and give the harmonics a new meaning. To help the attack of single strokes to bite through the mix again (after you lost it due to the distortion), compress the signal with a fairly long attack (about 3 to 5 ms), good threshold (the signal should at least compress for 6 dB) and a not too low ratio (4:1, for example).

    HTH,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Don't do an artifical crescendo. Instead do a timbral crescendo. This way even on compressed speakers it will be effective.

    So start with some sus p samples, then have some crescendo samples, and ff samples come in, ramp up, and over take the initial p samples. Works like a charm.

    For the ff timp, apply about +9db in the 2.7Khz range. "Q" will depend on your ears.Also, add some crispness before you add more verb, like around 7Khz, +5db. Then make it wetter. The extra snap in the treble will work.

    Evan Evans

  • Ah, come on. Not so subtle, Dietz [[;)]] Pull out the Marshall! And after distorting I usually apply also a boost around 1600 Hz and get rid of some bass.

  • Wow. Jay, it sounds very good.
    I might be biased now, but the timpani really sits on my shoulder. It is to close.
    Generally I think the room is a tiny amount too small, the sound has a clumsy atmosphere.

  • Mathis,

    What are you using to create your hall? Have you tried gigapule? If so, what settings do you use?

    Best,
    Jay

  • No GS3 yet. I´m still mixing inside Samplitude.