I think I know what Evan is saying. Scott presented his ideas and concepts in such a simple powerful manner, that I've fundamentally re-thought the way I approach my orchestral work. I feel I'm already reaping the benefits, and can already hear the result.

By the way Evan, I mentioned you to Scott at the after-class get together and he had very nice things to say.

Fred Story

Neat Fred. Thanks,

Evan Evans

P.S. yeah, upon rereading what I wrote up there, I think you'd have to understand what Scott teaches in order to understand what the heck I said. LOL.

Hi guys,

Today I paid for and downloaded the hour-long Scott Smalley orchestration masterclass from The Industry Store (http://www.theindustrystore.com/doause.html).

The extent to which I am surprised and dissapointed is difficult to put into words. In my opinion, it is entirely inconcievable that any orchestration student could extract any applicable information from this lesson whatsoever. If there is any vaguely applicable information in this seminar, you could find it using google in a lot less than 57 minutes (which is the duration of the seminar). Then you could have a donut and a coffee, and you would still have time left over.

Once every twenty minutes (so three times in total), Scott actually makes a reference to orchestration. The rest of the seminar is dedicated to life in general, movie politics, the evolution of the human species, Scott's techniques to stay awake for several days at a time, or how composers are like druids who sing mantras. The first enlightened gem of information is that his score layout has the trumpets above the horns, because, well, it's clearer. The second revelation is that if you put all the instruments in the same tessitura, they blend better. The third and final pearl of wisdom is that he tries to find idiomatic things for the instruments to do, so he would rather give the woodwinds runs than merely double the brass in a fanfare. That, my friends, is it.

I should mention that Scott is currently "pushing the envelope" of western harmony by adding the blue note to the dominant (I assume he means mixolydian) scale. The reason is "because we need more notes". There is no further explanation. Another awe-inspiring spear of knowledge is that you don't have to use only II-V-I's when you write music. You can use chords that move by thirds, like Gerry Goldsmith. He states how this realisation changed his life for ever. There is no further explanation.

Was I expecting an orchestration treatise in an hour? No. Was I expecting, at the absoulute least, a glimpse into the astounding, groundbreaking, 100% unique concepts of orchestration that Scott has built from the ground up, challenging everything we learned at music school? Frankly, I was.

Now, I know Scott is an amazing orchestrator, because I've heard his work. I'm also sure Scott is an amazing guy, and an amazing teacher (well, on some days I guess). However, it is my honest opinion that this seminar is bereft of any interest whatsoever to the field of orchestration. I post this here in the hope of warning others in my position that the concepts Fred Story is raving about are absent in their entirety. Just aswell the two-day seminar he attended was completely different. Such was my surprise that I entertained the idea that there may be two Scott Smalleys.

Leon

Leon,

I think I ordered the same CD you did prior to my attending the class. You're right...there's not a lot of meat there. And yes, Scott can go off on tangents with stories about the biz. (He even warns about this in the class. He urged us to stop him if he digressed too much. But...he has some REALLY great stories!)

I suppose all can say, Leon, is that I was one of 35 people in the class - many of them high level working professionals...one writing an opera as part of her doctoral thesis. The ones I had the opportunity to spend any time with seemed as energized as I was. I thought it also spoke volumes that at least two had taken the class once already and were auditing it for a second time. (One had attended in LA as was auditing in New York. What does THAT say?)

Yes, Scott has a unique personality. Honestly, the first time I heard him on the CD I thought, "The top film orchestrator in Hollywood is THIS guy?" But this guy sent everyone in the class a lengthy email two days after the class outlining a couple of important points he realized he'd failed to cover in person. It's also important to note...Scott focuses on FILM orchestration, and is quite vocal about the fact that achieving the big orchestra contemporary action/adventure sound breaks many of the rules we learned in traditional orchestration. You hear examples of poor chord voicing...then explore numerous alternate voicings using his concepts. It's detailed stuff...stuff you can only get from years of working with the top film composers and the best orchestras.

So I suppose what I am saying with all this is...don't judge a two day experience from an edited one-hour highlight reel. I don't know how much contol he even has on what gets edited into the excerpt CDs. And I don't see how he could cover his concepts adequately in such a short format. So maybe the recorded excerpts suck...but for me, the two day seminar definitely did not. I suppose my expectations weren't high when I bought the CD...and it did intrigue me enough to want to take the class. Plus it was only 10 bucks. Sorry if I misled anyone with the link to the downloads. But I can say, at the cost of the $295.00 class fee, plus round trip airfare from Charlotte to New York, and 3 nights in a Midtown Manhattan hotel - my expectations WERE high...and I wasn't disappointed. One fellow flew in from Denmark...one from Rome. (Two fellows I REALLY enjoyed meeting!) Of course, depending on what you hope to take from it, I'm sure it's not for everyone.

And at the risk of sounding like Scott's agent, or something...

One thing about a lot of folks in Hollywood is this obsession with maintaing their "secrets". I suppose it's so competitive, folks find it necessary. Scott is an open book. Not only is he not secretive...he seems genuinely eager to share everything he knows with anyone who'll listen. There's one concept in particular which Scott invented (the Zed clef) which I wager will be in film orchestration textbooks in the future.

Now...I'll be emailing Scott to collect my commission.
[[;)]]

Fred Story

Hi!

Yes, I do realise that it's a different story when you go to lessons with him. But man, they should take that masterclass off the air! Its a scam!!

sigh [[;)]]

Leon

PS: if Scott is listening, man that masterclass doesn't do you any justice! It's very bad publicity. Also: could you reveal just the general areas of knowledge you deal with in terms of orchestration as it differs from what you learn in school? No details, I just want to know if it's worth me travelling to learn from you, and the CD I just listened to has left me none the wiser.

I should have written a warning here when people started to refer to this CD. Yes, it´s pretty useless.
However, I learned a bit about the composer/orchestrator relationship in Hollywood.

yeh I bought that CD too. Mostly for nostalgia. But it doesn't compare to 16 hours with the man.

lets not even talk about it again ok?

Evan Evans

Evan,

The epitome of excitement actually came when he said that he made a very cool trumpet sample with you! While I'm in Carmel next year beating your french horn secrets out of you, I'll raid your hard drive too. [:D]

Leon

I just finished the LA workshop with Scott.

WOW!

This is some incredible insight. It's so Jazz-istic
in that he's passing the knowledge on so freely.

He's a totally out there cat that just has that THING about
him that makes you want to keep listening. Spicoli is who
comes to mind. The inspiration that i walk away with is just
really deep!!!!

Dude, it's like....you know what i'm sayin'? it's just........Cool.

Thanks, Scott

.....now back to the jazz singer in the lounge accompanied by 3 tubas........

more later

@Leon Willett said:

Evan,

The epitome of excitement actually came when he said that he made a very cool trumpet sample with you! While I'm in Carmel next year beating your french horn secrets out of you, I'll raid your hard drive too. [:D]

Leon

He he. Yeah, that trumpet is ME. Probably is in every thing Scott does. What's cool about it is how real and warm it sounds. Certainly not that it's a great trumpet sample. it's only like 1.3MB. But it's every note and the attacks are to die for (they're me!).

Anytime, you wanna come up to visit you are welcome. Also I give advanced film music composition lessons.

Cheers,
Evan Evans

I too was there this weekend. I can't tell you how much I recommend it. To have a chance to hear from a guy like him who's been in the industry for 25 years is priceless. He has changed not only the traditional approach to orchestration but he also challenged standard practice. His thinking is very practical and everything he says makes total sense. (okay the alien technology is quite challenging! [:P])

I had to catch my flight right after the class last night so I could not take up his extended invitation to go hang out at his house on the mountain. Thankfully I had the opportunity to get to know him a bit better over a few beers the night before. Still I'm pumped, bring on that 20 staff manuscript paper.

Rock on dude!

=m=a=r=c=

@Leon Willett said:

Hi guys,

Another awe-inspiring spear of knowledge is that you don't have to use only II-V-I's when you write music. You can use chords that move by thirds, like Gerry Goldsmith. He states how this realisation changed his life for ever. There is no further explanation.



Leon

hey all,
leon's frustration bought back a great part of the class for me.
during the course, i was in the same class as fred story in ny, this II-V-I and progressions in 3rd parts was very interesting. The larger context was about writing cues that sound like they're progressing but not resolving. Throwing in V-I relationships tend to slow down the forward movement in the cue. it's great for stacking 4 bar and 8 bar phrases in song form but not enhancing a long and gory battle between the forces of good and evil or a torrid love scene. scott referenced off the II-V-I in the context of the history of movie and tv scores--alot of the composers from the 60's and 70's were jazz cats who wanted to settle down, so they went to LA. II-V-I's
were rampant. One of scotts personal battles was to help these guys expand their pallet of colors. He personally fought off composers dogmas in the trenches off hollywood, so when he mentions moving away from II-V-I's or other techniques, it not a tip or a trick or rule it's a personal victroy. scott personaly lead the conversion from transposed scores to concert scores in hollywood. so when he mentions using concert scores it not just an obvious tid bit, it's his history.

Does everyone who takes his course sound like a member of a cult? Hail the mighty scott!!!! How dare you question the devine knowledge?!?
sorry about the tone. I'm gonna have to learn how to use the smiley faces.

Often scott just gets unharmonized lines and instument indications for a cue that emotionally goes all over the map. By progressing in major or minor 3rds (throw in a minor chord when you need dark and major chord when you need bright) you get great color change and drama but don't have to work so hard avoiding tonic resolutions which can slow the pace down. if one had 7 french horn attacks to accompany parts of a building blowing up that leads to a chase scene, it's a great technique. no where to go but forward. smally applied this technique when harmonizing the main batman theme.....a very successful theme.
a short five note english horn theme (i love the vsl english horn) played while someone is going through a dresser and is afriad they might find body parts(which is the least of this persons problem because the audience can see the killer is watching her from the closet and quitetly muttering "no mother, no") might be harmonized like this...Cmin to Abmin to Emin to Bbmin to Dmaj. The major chord is for when she finds a picture of herself as a child, the E to Bb is just a matter of skipping over a possible G root.
to help the chords flow a bit use an independent bass line. ...Cmin/Eb to Abmin/Eb to Emin to Bbmin/F to Dmaj/F#. Scott showed examples of how alan silvestri uses this technique (with the seperate bass lines) to the point of obsession.
These colors are no secret, you can hear them all over, from Giant Steps to Forest Gump. One of Smallys points was, when you get the cue from the composer at 10:58PM and the down beat for the recording session is at 8AM the next morning, speed and sysetems will get you through the night in a less fickel manor than inspiration.


sorry about the long post it's lunch time and it's too cold to leave the damn building.
James

[...

Very Interesting James. It makes sense. I really have to catch his next one in SLC [:(]

Rob

@PaulR said:

[quote:5b02cced95="see why what?"] One of Smallys points was, when you get the cue from the composer at 10:58PM and the down beat for the recording session is at 8AM the next morning, speed and sysetems will get you through the night in a less fickel manor than inspiration.

James

James, you're kidding, of course.[/quote]

paul,

Kidding about inspiration being tempermental or the inhospitable time frame?
the time frame is common and inspiration is a poor collaborator.
:>[;)] (still haven't figured out the smiley faces)
james

@PaulR said:

James, you're kidding, of course.

Kidding about what? Nothing he said was kidding. What are talking about Paul?

Evan Evans

[...

[quote:4a049a50f0="see why what?"]a short five note english horn theme (i love the vsl english horn) played while someone is going through a dresser and is afriad they might find body parts(which is the least of this persons problem because the audience can see the killer is watching her from the closet and quitetly muttering "no mother, no") might be harmonized like this...Cmin to Abmin to Emin to Bbmin to Dmaj. The major chord is for when she finds a picture of herself as a child, the E to Bb is just a matter of skipping over a possible G root.[/quote]

The E to Bb is also a diminished 5th, which is the 'wild card' interval in the whole Mediant Harmonic concept. (Or 'Goldsmithian Technology' as Scott likes to call it.)

Like the three chords in the "Batman" main theme melody...Cmin, Ab, Dmaj. Third, diminished 5th. Big and dramatic.

Fred Story

COOL! [:D]

@PaulR said:

James, you're kidding, of course.

Kidding about what? Nothing he said was kidding. What are talking about Paul?

Evan Evans

Sorry lads! My bad. I misunderstood the use of the word 'speed' [:O]ops:

i went over that part of my post to figure out how one could possibly find 2 meanings in what i wrote....laughed my arse off! [:D]
...it inspired me to figure out how to use the smiley faces.
james