Yet another monitor topic

[Peter Roos]

Hello all,

Background: I am still not making a living with music, but I am getting my studio to a semi-pro level and hope to change my business from IT to music within a few years. You know: the older you get, the harder and slower such moves prove to be... [:(]

I have a set of active Event Project Studio monitors (PS[H]. Now I am looking for a reasonably priced approach to expand my monitoring system to surround. I have an idle Samson amp, which I might use for passive surrounds, or for center and bass. I have enough routing options for surround in the Behringer mixer that I use for monitoring. My central DAW has an RME 9652 with 8 analog outs.

Should I stay with Event and check out their new models? Or can I expect that these new ones sound differently? Personally I am not really too fond of my speakers, but I cannot compare them to others. Maybe they are actually quite "honest". Also, I am trying to work on my room, which until now has been too open and a bit boomy in the lower mids.

Is it unwise to mix brands? I understand that I should at least try to have a center speaker that is very close in sound to the L + R monitors.

Any reflections are very much appreciated!

Peter

[Dietz]

Its unwise to mix brands - as a matter of fact it is even unwise to mix _model numbers_ from the same brand when you aim for music-mixing.

Don't be confused by silly multimedia"- and home-cinema setups with different sizes and features for L/R, center and surround. For music, all speakers have to be identical (except the LFE, of course, which is only sparingly used for musical purposes, anyway; "LFE" is not the same as "Subwoofer", BTW: the latter is to be seen as part of the 5 main channels, while the former is a seperate, dedicated channel).

But OTOH - if it's just for the fun of it, almost every set of speakers will do for the rear, and the center may be routed to L/R , if you like ...

/Dietz

[mathis]

Peter,

if you like, stop by and listen to my newly acquired Nuberts (www.nubert.de). Pretty inexpensive and pretty wonderful. It´s no surround setup here but you will be able to imagine how great a reasonably priced surround system with these speakers would sound.
I have the best coffee in town and I could cook us some tasty electrons.

Tot ziens,
- Mathis

[PolarBear]

Reading from a few people about Nuberts, that they do regard them as nice surround setup, but afterall they say it's HiFi and nothing that equals a monitoring system, even a cheap monitor is supposed to sound "better" (suited for the application).

[Dietz]

Nick Batzdorf is a strong advocat for the BlueSky-line of desktop monitors. Maybe he can chime in with a short statement ...?

/Dietz

[mathis]

@PolarBear said:

Reading from a few people about Nuberts, that they do regard them as nice surround setup, but afterall they say it's HiFi and nothing that equals a monitoring system, even a cheap monitor is supposed to sound "better" (suited for the application).

I don´t agree. The Nuwave35 I have are ultraflat. I´m working with Nubert speakers now for several years and the mixes always transported very well.
I find the Event 20/20 more Hifi´isch than these Nuberts. And they´re definitely more honest than Mackies. And they´re much more nicer in the trebles than Genelecs.
If you really want to spend more money than necessary, your choice.

I have an engineering experience of 15 years. After all, the absolute MOST important thing is KNOWING your speakers. If you know your speakers you can make a top notch mix on 10 Euros speakers.

[mathis]

Actually, rethinking the whole issue, I never understood this distinction between Hifi and Studio speakers. Either a speaker sounds good or it doesn´t.

[mathis]

Having said the things about Genelecs, they actually have ONE model which is really amazing: the S30 with the ribbon tweeter.

[Dietz]

@mathis said:

Having said the things about Genelecs, they actually have ONE model which is really amazing: the S30 with the ribbon tweeter.

... which are the main monitors in our editing suites [:)]

If you like this sound, you should_love_ Adam Audio-monitors.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

[mathis]

[:D] Great!

Well, about the Adam´s. There are some things I refuse to care about only because they are out of my price range... [:'(]

[Dietz]

The smaller ones are not _that_ expensive ...? I was thinking about the 2.5 A, for example.

/Dietz

[mathis]

No, unfortunatly. About 4 times what I spent now. I´m sure that for their quality the price is VERY good. However, I´m a poor but happy student currently.

[jbm]

I can't resist saying something...

In my experience, it's a bit off-the-mark to specifically worry about whether speakers are "studio monitors" or not. Maybe some of you remember my slightly embarassing post about looking for studio monitors, and suddenly becoming fixated on the idea of finding a set of Polk Audio Monitor 5s, vintage circa 1978. Well, I found them. And it's the best $75.00 I've ever spent (admittedly, you'll normally find them for US $250-ish). Now, before everybody points out what a fool I must be, let me say that (to be totally cliche) my main deduction after using these things for a couple of months is -- "they just don't make them like they used to!"

When I started looking for monitors, like everybody, I went to my local music shop and listened to a wide variety, from within my price-range, to well beyond it (no, my original range wasn't $75!). The ones I liked best, and which were vaguely within my range, were the Mackie's (I think it's HR824). I listened to Berhingers and Tapcos, Genelecs, and a very nice pair of Blue Skys (yes, they were wonderful, but too pricey for me). But the main thing I came away with from this experience was the feeling that "flat" is basically an illusion, laying somewhere between an analytic fallacy and a psychoacoustic Holy Grail. Basically, my subjective discrimination of "flat" changed, however slightly, with each new set I listened to. This left me thinking... "God, I guess I just need speakers that *sound* reasonably flat to me, and that I don't feel irritated listening to!"

So I went away, somewhat dismayed, and for no good reason started dreaming of this ancient set of Polks my parents had when I was a kid. It somehow became stuck in my head that *those* had the sound I was after (yes, this is probably getting somewhat Fruedian!). Then, lo and behold, I found some -- and in my home town, no less! Honestly, these things sound brilliant: remarkably clean, detailed soundstage, flat response, tight bass, plenty of power. I would, in all honesty, place them well above the Berhingers and not far off the Mackies (no, I'm not stupid, they are *not* Genelecs or Blue Skys!).

So, to cut an already long story short(er), it seems to me the most vital points, in order of importance, are:

1) Knowing your speakers
2) Having speakers you can listen to for hours (fatigue will affect decisions)
3) Having a "flat" response
4) Playing your masters on as many different systems as possible

The old Polks did it for me. (But by no means am I suggesting they will "do it" for anyone else!). cheers!

J.

-- ps -- It is worth note that most hi-fi speakers of today are really quite "sculpted" in sound, and not particularly flat. I guess they sell better when they hide the rough edges... don't know... Also, note that "home theatre" speakers seem to be the big offenders in this aspect (gotta make them 'splosions real scaaary!). And admittedly, Polk has become one of the worst for "juicing up" the sound... too bad.

[clarkcontrol]

jbm,

Sad that Polks tend to hype the sound now. I had a set of 6 car speakers from Polk 20 years ago and thay had to be the best I've ever heard. Huge magnets, too. Heavy things pulled out of my door and had to be remounted with extra support.

Clark

[Rob Welsh]

Hopefully the goal here is to reproduce the most accurate sonic event from an electrical signal to an acoustic wavefront. It should not matter weather a speaker fit into a label catagory of "hi fi" or "professional", it only matters on how accurately it reproduces the signal, and in the most uncolored way. The term "flat frequency" response is used way too much in describing a speaker. Ask at what db level all of these frequencies (20 to 20,000?) are flat in a particular speaker....below 100 HZ. this statement can be misleading. The Dunlavys, the Meridian, the Legacy Whisper (to name just afew) are super hi fi, but you will find them in mastering studios where accuracy (at huge dynamic ranges) is paramount. Of course there are many "colored" sounding speakers on the market, but it would be a mistake to dismiss a product just because of it being labeled "hi-fi". Because, generally this is the group dedicated to persuing "the best it can be" in sound reproduction.

[clarkcontrol]

Something also to remember is to do comparative mixing, such as different speakers to headphones and even commercial recordings (of similar music) vs. your mix. My ears will go through many stages of fatigue throughout the day so these "ear checks" are necessary for me. It also levels the playing field somewhat concerning the loudspeaker choice, because this process also helps you learn your speakers. I use lots of different speaker systems in my studio, most of them very cheap (God bless Radio Shack). You only need one decent pair of speakers because then most everything else can be extrapolated from there. Oh, yeah and a great set of headphones is a must.

I have been satisfied with the performance to dollar my RCA surround system provides for me. Sure, it sounds TOTALLY different than a pro setup, but you have to ask yourself what exactly do you want to do with it? I make critical mix decisions with my better speakers then do final panning with the consumer system. With what I'm doing this is fine. Plus it helps me check the stuff out in a low-end real-world setup.

So my advice is get something that You like. By following jbm's 4 steps you should be very happy.

[PolarBear]

Actually a theoreticals speaker's "flat frequency" from 20Hz to 20kHz will almost sure result in a non-flat response in-room, depending on many factors such as room size, room treatment, walls, furniture, windows, gear... Flat response from 20Hz up is only good for very big rooms (theatre size at least) because room gain in smaller will give you more bass than you expect in this range. Also what's flat at all, how do we know something is flat? Two different speakers can have two absolutely same looking flat response and still sound a lot different (this goes even that far that for the higher priced monitors manufactors select two speakers of the same kind individually to build a pair)! This is due to construction issues as the methods of recording such responses usually free-air.

PolarBear

[Piernick]

I Peter.
I work with Blue Sky since two years.
i choose this kind of monitor before their official italian distribution.
i've a 5.1 set-up in my little studio.
the blue sky sound great. it's a good choice.
belive me

[Disco Fish]

Even though some speakers say the frequency response is 30hz-30k, unless they have 9" woofer, i've never had any that have gotten anything accurate below about 60hz.

I'd rather spend the same amount of money on 2 monitors and a subwoofer than on just 2 monitors with anything less than 9" woofers.

I had Event PS 5's which claimed to go down to 50hz, and underneath around 100hz was practically inaudible.

Even with my new ADAM P11a's (7.25" woofer), which are spectacular, however the difference between them with the subwoofer and without the subwoofer is gigantic.

I would miss alot of low end meanies lurking at the bottom of the frequency pail without the sub, especially in anything besides orchestral music.

That's my two cents, I might be completely wrong and inept, but personally I've had a few problems every once and a while mixing without a sub.

Does anyone else agree?

[Nick Batzdorf]

Yeah, the Blue Skys are really nice. While I was at the AES Convention the week before last, I visited a friend who's up there remixing the entire Talking Heads catalog in surround. He first heard the Blue Skys at my house, and they now have them in Jerry Harrison's studio in Sausalito.

Two things struck me. The first is that these are the first surround mixes I've heard that I really like. While I haven't heard a lot of surround, and bearing in mind that it's easy to lose perspective because someone is your friend, I honestly think these mixes stand a good chance of revolutionizing how people approach surround mixing. They're that good.

The second is that no matter how good the speakers are, there's a huge difference between a halfway treated room (as mine is) and one that was designed properly to start with or has been treated properly. Those speakers sound good in my room, and I can hear subtle details pretty well in here, but there's just no comparison to the way the low end sounds there and in my room.

Time to start fooling around with a measurement mic and some bass traps.